=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= SFEP-ED-L Vol. 1, no. 12 24 November 1996 SFEP Editorial mailing list =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Contents: [1] Editorial Q & A---Previous threads [2j] Dictionaries and reference books [2q] American English [2r] Geographical naming conventions [Offshoot from: Dictionaries and reference books] [2s] Pluralist language [2t] "Taleban" v. "Taliban" FYI [3s] _Faux pas_ of the week [3t] Editing nightmare of the week [3u] Spelling program [3v] British Library catalogues Business matters---Previous threads [4d] Just payment for work performed [5] Bookmarks [6] Administration =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= --[1] Editorial ---------------------------------------------------- ADVANCE NOTICE ADVANCE NOTICE ADVANCE NOTICE ADVANCE NOTICE From 1 January 1997, the roles of the moderators of SFEP-ED-L are being swapped: Jane Kerr will assume the editorship of SFEP-ED-L, whilst Iain Brown will assume responsibility for posting the issues out to subscribers. Iain will continue to maintain the archive of back issues, at: < http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/i_brown/sfep-ed.htm > and Jane will continue to update the SFEP-ED-L Resources Page: < http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/bywater > Until this time, please keep sending your messages for distribution to Iain Brown at 100131.3564@compuserve.com. --[2] Q & A -------------------------------------------------------- [2j] Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 From: Derek Atkins, 101355.3602@compuserve.com Re: Dictionaries and reference books Thanks to all those who have contributed so far. No one has yet mentioned, for the copy editor's armoury, (1) The Collins Gem Dictionary of English Spelling and Hyphenation, which, I believe from training courses via SFEP, is the SFEP's recommended reference work for hyphenation rather than the Oxford version. (2) The Royal Society report on Quantities, Units and Symbols, which I have found helpful for maths/physics editing but which dates from 1975. Is there a better reference point for such items nowadays? Like Josephine Bacon, I have used Grolier's encyclopedia, but the multimedia version (release 6) on cd-rom, which is quite good but (of course) somewhat oriented towards American material. I agree that a list of standard reference works (are we talking about Halsbury etc for legal statutes etc?) would be a great help, especially for someone like me who is new to the industry. One final comment on this topic for now: rather than buy some of these reference works (eg a big AmericanEnglish dictionary, which I would use only occasionally), I make a point of visiting my local reference library when I need them. It is very well stocked and very helpful. But, of course, I am starting to realise that much of this material is/may soon be online... +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ [2q] Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 From: Ian Kingston, 100345.1764@compuserve.com Re: American English Not dealing much with medical books these days, I rather assumed that 'internist' was just a synonym for 'intern'. However, I checked what COD has to say and it appears that they're quite different. *intern* esp. N. Amer. a recent graduate or advanced student receiving supervised training in a hospital and acting as an assistant physician or surgeon *internist* esp. N. Amer. Med. a specialist in internal diseases This is a very clear distinction, but I'm quite prepared to believe that two such similar words are often used interchangeably. Interestingly, neither definition includes GPs, which (in the light of Josephine and Barbara's comments) suggests to me that the definitions might be either incomplete or wrong (shock horror!). Circumstantial evidence of a lack of understanding of American terms can be found in COD's entry for 'Super Bowl', which contains a monumental blunder. This prompted me to look at WWWebster (see elsewhere in this SCO) for US definitions, which produced: *intern* an advanced student or graduate usually in a professional field (as medicine or teaching) gaining supervised practical experience (as in a hospital or classroom) *internist* a specialist in internal medicine Not very different from COD! What's going on? Is popular usage different from official usage? Can I believe my dictionaries? ---------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 From: Naomi Laredo, naomi@smallprt.demon.co.uk Further to the query: > The word 'internist' is used a couple of times to describe various > people - my Webster's dictionary gives this as 'a doctor who > specializes in internal medicine'. What on earth is this in ordinary > English usage? And Josephine Bacon's response: > In common American parlance, an internist is simply a GP. As so often when editing translations, I'd like to know what the original German said. 'Internist' is seen on doctors' name plates in Germany, and I'm not sure that it implies 'GP' there. I think Barbary Hornby's interpretation fits the German situation: > an internist differs from a GP (or family practice doctor) by > specialising in internal conditions and diseases of adults, excepting > ob-gyn. Many people use internists as their primary doctor rather > than a GP. My Collins Ger/Eng dictionary translates the German 'Internist' as 'internist', so we're back at square one. Worth a query to the publisher/German author? ----------------------- Date: Tues, 19 Nov 1996 From: Petra Kopp, 101766.1505@compuserve.com I think Barbara Hornby and her sister are right about the term 'internist'. Exactly the same usage applies in Germany. As the book was translated from German originally, this seems to make sense! +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ [2r] Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 From: Amanda Harper, ln08[at]dial.pipex.com Subject: Geographical naming conventions [Offshoot from: Dictionaries and reference books] Is there some kind of definitive list of country names, or worldwide geographical naming convention? What is it? What do other people use? ---------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 From: Derek Atkins, 101355.3602@compuserve.com Not much help to Amanda Harper et al, I'm sure, but just to mention that the 1990 edition of the COD has, in its Appendix 1, a list of countries by name (eg Denmark), together with the name of an inhabitant (eg Dane) and the general adjective (eg Danish). Not, of course, very up-to-date for recently formed countries, but generally helpful for Djibouti, Kiribati, Chad etc. that don't appear often in newspapers. On Iain Brown's related point on Taleban/Taliban (about which I cannot help), I have had recent similar trouble over Moldova/Moldavia, both used by august bodies such as The Times and the BBC. I just queried it back to my publisher, but has anyone a definitive view on these two forms? +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ [2s] Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 From: Ian Kingston, 100345.1764@compuserve.com Re: Pluralist language Jane Kerr wrote: > According to all the dictionaries that are within arm's length of > my computer, the word "militia" is a collective noun for a body of > soldiers, therefore the concluding "s" seems to me to be at least > unnecessary, and at worst wrong. I've always interpreted 'militias' as meaning that there are several independent groups of soldiers, each one being described as a militia. In a situation like that in Zaire, where law seems to have broken down, this sounds like a plausible answer. ---------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 From: Merle Read, ReadMA@aol.com Jane Kerr mentioned > reports ... persistently refer to the armed rebels as "the militias" Just after reading Jane's message, I heard 'militias' (=militiamen, not armies) on BBC1 & the World Service. I agree it's 'orrible. It's not an Americanism according to my fairly new Webster's, so where has it come from? This is something else that's going to make me wince every time I hear it, as was the case with 'safe havens' once the tautology was pointed out to me. ---------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 From: Iain Brown, 100131.3564@compuserve.com I think Jane's posting in last week's issue demonstrates how language is altering ... in not so nice a way. Reading the "Daily Telegraph" last week, I found that we no longer listen to a radio station. We have "an interactive and participative relationship" with that station. Similarly, railway stations are now "destination locations". Wonderful! Does that mean we editors and proofreaders are now "textual exercisers and manipulators"? On the subject of euphemisms, items are no longer second-hand, pre-loved, pre-used, pre-owned nor pre-cared-for. Second-hand items are now "experienced", as in "For sale: experienced tractor, 120,000 kms on clock ..." Oh, and let me grovel here and say that I was not trying to introduce a new spelling of "Afghanistan" in last week's issue of SFEP-ED-L. It was a pure mistake, and, no, it wasn't put there to test if anyone was reading these mailings ... +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ [2t] Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 From: Ian Kingston, 100345.1764@compuserve.com Subject: "Taleban" v. "Taliban" I don't have the answer, but I've also seen "Ta'liban" somewhere. ----------------------- Date: Tues, 19 Nov 1996 From: Judith Willson, judith@jwillson.demon.co.uk > How and where did the difference in spelling arise? Please, someone > put me out of my misery ... The difference in spelling arises for the same reasons that there are differences in the spellings of words like Hizbollah, Quran, souk, Muhammad: because of the inherent difficulty of rendering a word in a Semitic language in roman script. 'Taliban' is the Persian version of an Arabic word meaning 'students' (because these are young men who studied the Quran and took on the extreme Islamist beliefs of their religious teachers in the refugee camps of northern Iran). There is no one, universally accepted, system of transliterating Arabic (or Persian which uses the Arabic alphabet), although there are a number of widely recognized systems used by academics and scholars. The letters of the Arabic alphabet frequently do not have exact equivalents in the roman alphabet, so systems of accents and/or symbols are used. The 't' of Taliban, for example is not the English 't' as in tin, but an emphatic that doesn't exist in English, and would usually be represented by 't' with an underdot. The 'a' is a long vowel as in 'car', not as in 'hat', so it would appear with a dash over it, and so on. Whatever the system, it enables a reader to arrive at a correct equivalent for the written form of any Arabic word, through a consistent system of letters and symbols. No newspapers or books for general readers transliterate words fully in this way, though. Rather than transliterating the written form of a word, these writers are really transcribing an approximation of the sound of a word, within the compromise of an alphabet that doesn't have the same range of sounds. So we get Taliban/Taleban, Hezbollah/Hizbullah or suq/souk. Short vowels are very insignificant and variable in spoken Arabic, anyway, and this, too, is often reflected in the diverse forms that are around. As such words gain currency, approved versions evolve, but this is just English style, there's often nothing more or less accurate about them as ways of rendering the original. They just sound about right within the limitations of English sounds and spelling. I don't know if this puts you out of your misery, Iain, or makes it worse. Lots of writers make up their own sort-of-transliteration systems which can turn mere misery into deepest despair! ---------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 From: Iain Brown, 100131.3564@compuserve.com Your lengthy and fascinating reply has put me out of my misery, Judith. Many thanks for sharing with us all your knowledge. --[3] FYI ---------------------------------------------------------- [3s] Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 From: Derek Atkins, 101355.3602@compuserve.com Re: _Faux pas_ of the week In issue 1.10 Jane Kerr quoted from The Times on the new Fowler edition. Those who read the follow-up letters to the Times' editor would have seen that that paper's correspondent, talking about 'betes noirs', should have remembered that it's la bete and so should have been 'betes noires'. Commander Chomondley-Warner RN (retd) (or whoever) was not amused! +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ [3t] Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 From: Shena Deuchars, SDEUCHAR@uk.oracle.com Subject: Editing nightmare of the week I was merely reading this, rather than editing it, but I thought it was an interesting concept - what do they call wise men who have not been discredited? The belief that [the menhirs] were the work of the Druids, the Celtic caste of wise-men having long been discredited, the most widely held theory is that their builders were an unknown seafaring race. . . +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ [3u] Date: Tues, 19 Nov 1996 From: Joy McKellen, 106035.605@compuserve.com Subject: Spelling program SPELL CATCHER (I feel remarkably more incompetent than usual: I don't know where I got it - all my accounts have gone off to my accountant and I can't find the reference, but I think most of the software houses will have it) works on email. It's a bit of a fiddle, as you have to select text you want checked, and it tends to go for US English in things like -IZE, though not on COLOR; these are easy enough to change by adding the word in question to the dictionary. And you can get a word count and (for what it's worth) a readability index after the spell check is finished, without having to go into another mode. Does this help? +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ [3v] Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 From: Merle Read, ReadMA@aol.com Subject: British Library catalogues I've found the Library of Congress catalogue very useful for checking references, but not so good for non-American items, obviously. So I thought I would try to find out what was available from our own British Library. In theory the Library's catalogue contains details of everything published in the UK and Ireland, plus some material from abroad, going back to the year dot. At the moment you can access the BL's catalogues at libraries on hard copy (hundreds of volumes) and microfiche, and they are also available on CDROM. Unfortunately for most people there's nothing free on-line yet, as the following, taken from a message I was sent by Jan.Ashton@mail.bl.uk, shows: > There are two ways of accessing the Library's catalogues via the > Internet. One is our priced service, Blaise (operational since the > mid 1970's) [used by libraries to obtain catalogue records of books > already received by the BL] and the other is the trial Network OPAC > [online public access catalogue]. The trial Network OPAC service > offers users access over the Internet to brief details of a number > of the Library's collections: > > Humanities and Social Sciences 1975- > Science, Technology and Business 1975- > British Library Catalogue (all subject areas ca. 1400-1975) > Printed Music 1980- > Document Supply Centre Books 1980- > > At the moment the Network OPAC service is only available to third > level academic and research organisations within the UK. The present > trial of the service will continue until early 1997. During the trial > there is no telnet access to the Network OPAC (instead, we register > an organisation and send out client software to load locally). > > *Unfortunately, at the moment, the trial is up to capacity for non > academic UK users and is unavailable overseas. This will be the case > until next year when a permanent replacement service will be more > widely available. > > The alternative method of accessing the Library's catalogues over the > Internet by telnet or by a Web interface, is by using our priced > service Blaise, which gives detailed access to most of the Library's > catalogues, 22 databases in total. Blaise also includes an online > order facility for sending requests for photocopies of material to > the Document Supply Centre at Boston Spa [rates start at 195 quid!]. The Library's website, by the way, is at < http://portico.bl.uk/ >. I look forward to accessing this tremendous resource in 1997, but given the BL's timekeeping record as far as opening the new St Pancras site goes, I'll not be holding my breath... --[4] Business matters --------------------------------------------- [4d] Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 From: Derek Atkins, 101355.3602@compuserve.com Re: Just payment for work performed Like Jane Kerr, as well as my official accounts I keep unofficial track of all my jobs. But in my case I keep the info in computerised tables (in Ami-Pro as it happens). I have a running total, and also therefore averages, of job size, time taken to complete, amount charged and time taken for client to pay. This gives me stats both overall and per client for what effective hourly rate I am working for, what my average throughput is, what my average fee is, and how long a client takes to pay my invoice. On the last stat, my (limited) evidence is that the time taken varies with the client rather than the size of the charge (see earlier SFEP-ED-L postings). ---------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 From: Josephine Bacon, 100270.3224@compuserve.com The best way is to write 2% per month surcharge for late payers on an invoice, and if they are really late, sue them for the whole amount plus interest. However, I have a lot of experience with late payers and the only thing that *really* works is to nag them constantly, until they are so fed up with hearing from you that they hand the money over just to get rid of you. English people hate to complain and think it's rude to "demand" money, but the commonest reason for late payment is that people are not aggressive enough in asking for payment. There are also genuine reasons, such as the accounts department being in a total mess. For your information, I have just told Van Den Bergh Foods, part of the mega Unilever that we will never work for them again since they have only just paid a June invoice. Be warned, it is the big companies that do this the most. And has anyone ever noticed the "second invoice" syndrome? Your first invoice is paid on time, but in the case of the job you did for them next, payment never arrives and the invoice turns out to be "lost". This has happened too often, and always with big companies, for it to be a coincidence. --[5] Bookmarks ---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 From: Ian Kingston, 100345.1764@compuserve.com In the course of some random wanderings around the Net this week I stumbled on a couple of items that might be of interest. First, I discovered the Usenet newsgroup < alt.usage.english >, which discusses (surprise) English usage. There seems to be a reasonably cosmopolitan bunch of contributors, which makes for some interesting discussions. The second item was mentioned in alt.usage.english: an online dictionary (WWWebster [sic]) at the Merriam-Webster site: < http://www.m-w.com/ > It works reasonably well, though it's probably only likely to be of use if your own dictionaries have failed you. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ The BBC's Web site is now < http://www.bbc.co.uk >. The old address (www.bbcnc.org.uk) will be discontinued from December 1st. The BBC is always _very_ helpful, they even answer e-mails... +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Project Gutenberg Although now in financial difficulties, PG has just made its 700th etext available on-line. They are expecting to post etext no. 1000 in four months' time. You can get the Project Gutenberg books via FTP and the Web: < ftp uiarchive.cso.uiuc.edu > or < ftp 128.174.5.14 > [This site is in Urbana, Illinois] login: anonymous password: yourname@your.machine cd pub cd etext cd gutenberg cd etext95 [or 94, 93, 92, 91 or 90. 70's and 80's are in /etext90] get filename (be sure to set bin, if you get the .zip files) get more files quit get INDEX?00.GUT ? = 1,2,4,8 New files in etext96, of course. --- < ftp ftp.prairienet.org > or < ftp 192.17.3.4 > [This site is in Champaign, Illinois] username: anonymous password: yourlogin@your.machine.domain cd pub/providers/gutenberg/etext96 [etc, as above] ls or dir for a listing of files get filename.txt (ascii files) get filename.zip (binary zipped files) --- Project Gutenberg Web Sites can now be reached at: < http://promo.net/pg/ > [This is the definitive site for now, in Nevada] < ftp://uiarchive.cso.uiuc.edu/pub/etext/gutenberg/pg_home.html > < http://www.prairienet.org/pg > < http://www.sol.com.sg/pg > [This site is in Singapore] < ftp://cdrom.com/pub/gutenberg > [This site is in Silicon Valley] < ftp://archive.org/pub/gutenberg/etext/etext?? > where ?? is the year 96, 95, 94, 93, 92, 91 or 90 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ See also section [3v] above, for the British Library Web details. --[6] Administration ----------------------------------------------- SFEP Editorial provides the opportunity for a weekly online discussion of matters editorial and editorial business. * POSTING MESSAGES TO THE LIST All messages to be posted to the list should be sent to Iain Brown, at: 100131.3564@compuserve.com Include as the subject line, "SFEP-ED-L [topic]", where [topic] is the subject under discussion. Topics might include areas such as Grammar, Spelling, American English or Punctuation. Messages should be pertinent to the basic premise of the list; they may be withheld, or redirected if more pertinent to the Computing Online mailing list or to the main Society Newsletter. The spelling and grammar of messages will *not* be corrected, but some editing of length may be undertaken. Quoting from previous messages: quote as much as you need to make the context of your reply clear, but no more. * Administration All messages of a subscription or administrative nature should be directed to Jane Kerr at: bywater@zetnet.co.uk with "SFEP EDITORIAL ADMIN" in the subject line. * To subscribe to SFEP Computing Online To subscribe to SFEP Computing Online, please e-mail Eddie Kent at: EDDIE.KENT@mcr1.poptel.org.uk * SFEP homepage < http://www.sfep.demon.co.uk/ > * SFEP-ED-L homepages For back issues: < http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/i_brown/sfep-ed.htm > For links to the URLs suggested in the Bookmarks section: < http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/bywater > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= END OF SFEP-ED-L 1.12 Next issue: 1 Dec 1996 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=