=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= EDline Vol. 2, no. 36 (7 September 1997) Editorial mailing list Published by the Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Contents: Q & A---Previous queries [2as] Commas in thousands [Was: [3aq] "Penguin Guide"] [2au] Program to manage editorial tasks? [2av] Beginners' books and courses Q & A---New queries [2aw] Optimum/optimal [2ax] Random House dictionary [Offshoot from: [6] "Just for fun"] FYI [3at] Glamorous grammar [3au] Writer's researcher Business matters---Previous thread [4y] Jury service [5] Bookmark [6] Just for fun [8] Administration =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ---[2] Q & A --------------------------------------------------------- ** [2as] Commas in thousands [Was: [3aq] "Penguin Guide"] Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 From: Jane Bryant, jane@snocat.demon.co.uk Josephine Bacon wrote: > I have seen this space inserted in English texts and that is > something truly to be deplored as a "foreign" trick. I've never posted a note before, being content to read and learn, but the tone of this remark left me gasping at the xenophobia expressed. I can only hope she was trying to be humorous. I have worked in scientific and technical publishing for many years, and find nothing odd at all about catering for the 'foreign' (or, as I prefer to think about it, the 'international') market. Scientific information is disseminated throughout the world, and the comma can be extremely confusing (and in many cases downright dangerous - imagine misinterpreting 20,000 for 20.000 in a drug dose). The thin space (e.g. 20 000 rather than 20,000) has been adopted by many (I would hazard a guess at most) of the scientific publishers in this country, making the information their books contain internationally acceptable. (In fact, when I did my 'A' levels more years ago than I care to remember, this type of notation was preferred, and certainly when I did my degree.) I have seen the comma used in numbers in both educational (GCSE and below) and more general works, which are either not so widely distributed or intended for a less scientifically oriented market. --------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 From: Rich Cutler, rich@mistral.co.uk It is standard practice to omit, for clarity, commas in numbers in science and maths (or indeed in any text that contains lots of thousands and/or decimal points), using spaces instead in numbers of five or more digits (four-digit numbers have no space, except in tables containing both four- and five-digit numbers in order to align). To quote from one source (of many), "Symbols, Signs and Abbreviations Recommended for British Scientific Publications" by The Royal Society: "no point or comma should ever be used except for the decimal sign". --------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 From: Joy Burrough, burrough@wnet.bos.nl The indignation about commas in thousands is presumably emanating from people who edit texts for the humanities. In the sciences, using spaces to separate thousands is respectable and long-established. It was mandatory for the editors working for the Australian Government back in the 1970s, of whom I was one. My _Australian Style Manual for Authors, Editors and Printers_ (1992) says that the change from a comma to a space was in response to a recommendation by the Metric Conversion Board in 1974, endorsed by the Standards Association of Australia. The _Oxford Dictionary for Scientific Writers and Editors (1991)_ also stipulates this usage, though noting that the comma may be used to separate groups of three digits in sums of money. Both OUP and the Aussies have the rule that four-digit numbers do not get separated by a space. So you would write 1000 metres. The rule does not apply to tables, however, where in a column containing three- and four-figure digits you have to insert a space in the three-figure digit so that it will align nicely. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2au] Program to manage editorial tasks? Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 From: Martyn Yeo, wordwise@cix.compulink.co.uk Gabriela Tenner wrote: > I'm looking for a program that manages all of the editorial > production tasks. Gabriela needs to specify the tasks that she wants to do before assessing whether any system (electronic or otherwise) can assist! --------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 From: Jane Kerr, bywater@zetnet.co.uk I'm only guessing here, but if Gabriela simply wants to keep track of what's been done/what needs to be done on each of her jobs, she could simply design a form or checklist in any word processor or spreadsheet program. Then it would simply be a matter of having the self-discipline to fill it in and refer to it when necessary. I myself have a low-tech approach to the admin. aspects of my job, which involves sticking those little yellow notes to my computer. (But there is currently such a note stuck to my computer with a phone number on it, and I can't remember why!) +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2av] Beginners' books and courses Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 From: Anne Waddingham, waddingham@compuserve.com The Chapterhouse course is well established and is probably the 2nd best of the bunch (more about the best in a moment). I have heard some criticisms but generally it seems to be reasonably good. However, I'd recommend Book House Training Centre's Basic Proofreading and Basic Editing by Distance Learning. I'm not involved in any way with this course (although I am a BHTC tutor) so don't have an axe to grind. The main reason I recommend it is that the proofreading one was written by Gillian Clarke, the SFEP Training Co-ordinator and long-time editing/proofreading tutor at BHTC, and they don't come much better than her, believe me. The editing course was written by Nicola Harris, who's also the bee's knees when it comes to such matters. Contact Jean Hindmarch at BHTC, 45 East Hill, Wandsworth, London SW18 2QZ; tel 0181 874 2718; fax 0181 870 8985; email bhtc@dial.pipex.com. Recommended reading: *Copyediting*, 3rd edn by Judith Butcher (CUP) is a must have. *Basic Editing* (The Text and The Exercises) by Nicola Harris (BHTC) is also very useful, as you can work through the exercises to give you some practice. Join the Society of Freelance Editors and Proofreaders (SFEP) if you haven't already (0171 403 5141) and go on some of their excellent training courses (they hold them in Edinburgh, York and London). And good luck! You'll need it! --------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 From: Judyth Mermelstein, Judyth_Mermelstein@babylon.montreal.qc.ca Robin Faichney wrote: > I just received an information pack from a UK training > organisation that seems to specialise in proofreading and copy > editing, called Chapterhouse. ... I'm afraid I can't answer your question about these people, since I've never heard of them before. Actually, I would be very interested in knowing more about them myself. If you have a moment to spare, perhaps you could let me know what they are offering or how to get in touch with them. As far as books are concerned, there are a great many and I hardly know which to recommend to you. Your local library can probably provide you with a good starting-point: most of the books I've seen on copy-editing have their own merits and those of us in the profession tend to borrow from many sources. Then again, the ones I learned most from were not textbooks on copy-editing but various types of books on language. "The Complete Plain Words" by E. Gower and others, and "The Reader over your Shoulder" by Robert Graves and Alan Hodge, for example, are two of my favourite British books. "The Elements of Style" by W. Strunk, Jr. and E.B. White (3rd ed.) is an excellent little American book. These are all more concerned with the art of writing well than the craft of copy-editing. I would also suggest "A Dictionary of Modern English Usage" by H.W. Fowler and revised by E. Gower -- that is, the 2nd edition, not the recently-published 3rd which is not the same at all! Then, there are the various style guides, most of which do discuss the details of editing and proofreading at least briefly. In Canada and the United States, the "bibles" are "The Chicago Manual of Style" by Kate Turabian, the "MLA Guide" put out by the Modern Languages Association, and the "APA Guide" by the American Psychological Association. Each of these is used by a large number of publications. Some people concentrate on one particular field but I find I need to know all three and am interested in the differences of approach. Then, too, I do some technical and scientific work, for which I use "Scientific Style and Format: The CBE Manual for Authors, Editors and Publishers (6th ed.) put out by Cambridge University Press. Other "bibles" - this time dealing more specifically with the craft as such are "Copy-editing: the Cambridge Handbook for Editors, Authors and Publishers" (3rd ed.) and "Copyediting: A Practical Guide" by K. Judd. If you already have some background in editing and a bit of disposable income, the Editors' Association of Canada has put together a two- volume set called "Meeting Editorial Standards" which consists of self- tests for various aspects of editing. Those of us who have been in this line of work for years can still learn a great deal from these books, since the topics are varied and the answer sections contain a lot of explanatory material. The publisher is Captus Press in Ontario; you can e-mail them for more information at . If you need more suggestions, pick any of the above and check their bibliographies, but these should certainly be enough to start you off. --------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 From: Lyn Imeson, lyn@imeson2.prestel.co.uk In reply to Robin Faichney's request for beginners' books and courses, I highly recommend "Basic Editing: A Practical Course" by Nicola Harris (published by Book House Training Centre, London). There are 2 volumes: "The Text" and "The Exercises" and you will need both of them. I'm not sure of the current price, but at 30-35 pounds for the two, these are very good value as an introduction to copy-editing. There is also a chapter on proofreading. I came into copy-editing "cold" three years ago, having never worked in-house for a publisher, and these 2 books taught me an incredible amount. If you can attend any of the courses run by the SFEP (in London, York and Edinburgh), these are also very good value for money, and provide the opportunity for discussion with experienced editors. --------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 From: Sue Lightfoot, slightfoot@compuserve.com I don't know much about Chapterhouse except that they advertise extensively, though I do recall someone on an SFEP training day saying that they were OK. I have completed the "Basic Proofreading" distance learning course written by SFEP's own Gillian Clarke and it is excellent: well written, organised and administered. It is administered on behalf of Book House Training Centre by the Flexible Learning Centre of West Herts College. Information can be obtained from Dawn Smith, Flexible Learning Centre, West Herts College, Langley Road, Watford, Herts WD1 3RH. Tel: 01923 257657. Fax: 01923 257667. email:watvcom@dircon.co.uk. --------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 From: Wendy Pillar, wlawson@pncl.co.uk Robin Faichney asked about the Chapterhouse correspondence courses. I have not seen the actual courses, but I have had applicants for copy- editor positions who claim to be able to copy-edit after having passed Chapterhouse's courses. These applicants were a very long way from being competent copy-editors ... SFEP's courses would be a much better bet, and worth the extra travelling expense, but you will also need to get plenty of practice and have your early work checked by someone experienced. For books Judith Butcher's Copy-editing is the best. Get in touch with the Book House Training Centre in London for a comprehensive list of books and professional training courses. --------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 From: Caroline Mackenzie, 100337.2075@compuserve.com I think this is the distance learning group which was based in Exeter some years ago. If so, they are disappointing. I completed about 2/3rds of the course with good results (from my point of view) and some satisfaction, but suddenly every thing dried up. No more reviews of my work, no more exercises, no replies to telephone messages or faxes, no refund of money. Not being in the UK, I had little leverage over them (turning up on their doorstep with a complaint, threats of Small Claims Court, etc.) - so I was just 'forgotten'. The course was interesting but not very stretching, compared with the Basic Editing books by Nicola Harris. My advice: don't bother. ---------------------- Date: Thur, 4 Sep 1997 From: Gillian Clarke, 101625.3601@compuserve.com Chapterhouse is a bona fide organisation. The courses are very cheap, but remember the axiom(?) that you get what you pay for. In my experience, publishers know of Chapterhouse but are reluctant to put any faith in its graduates. So it's fine unless your heart is set on getting into freelance editorial work for publishers, from scratch. The National Extension College (Cambridge) also has a copy-editing course, but I know even less of publishers' views of it. Book House Training Centre has two distance learning courses up and running: Basic Proofreading (by me) and Basic Editing (by Nicola Harris). They cost 275 pounds + VAT and 449 pounds + VAT, but probably would stand you in better stead with publishers - BHTC being the book & journal industry's training organisation and has a very good reputation. That said, however, lack of in-house experience is a great obstacle to getting a toe in the door of freelance editorial work. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2aw] Optimum/optimal Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 From: Jane Kerr, bywater@zetnet.co.uk Has anyone any comments to make on the usage of optimum and optimal, particularly in scientific contexts? Fowler states that optimum has a "precise meaning to which it should be confined---the conditions in which an organism will thrive best or a machine work most satisfactorily". Optimal doesn't even get a mention, nor is it present in every dictionary. Chambers only gives it a brief entry under "optimism", where it is defined - in that curiously circular way that only dictionary complilers can get away with - as "optimum". My current author (who is not a native English speaker) seems to use the terms interchangeably to describe the conditions under which laboratory animals are kept (and before I provoke any moral outrage, I'd like to add that the laboratory animals in questions are creepy- crawlies, and not cuddly bunnies!). +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2ax] Random House dictionary [Offshoot from: [6] "Just for fun"] Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 From: Josephine Bacon, 100270.3224@compuserve.com Brux was certainly not devised by high school students. Bruxism is a well-known phenomenon of people who unconsciously grind their teeth in their sleep, a condition easily recognised by dentists. I suffer from it myself, so I know. --------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 From: Jane Bryant, jane@snocat.demon.co.uk [...] 'bruxism' is a term used in dentistry meaning grinding of teeth. Presumably 'brux' is a corruption of that. --------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 From: Sue Lightfoot, SLightfoot@compuserve.com "brux -- to clench and grind one's teeth": Sorry, Iain, but this was in common use when I worked for a dentist in Michigan in the 70s. I'm not sure whether the term is commonly used in UK, but I see it is included in my Collins English Dictionary (1994): "bruxism -- the habit of grinding the teeth, esp. unconsciously. [Irregularly formed from Greek 'brykein' to gnash the teeth + ISM]" "toast -- to be doomed, ruined or in trouble": Apple have a program called 'Toast' with the slogan: "Don't burn your CDs, Toast 'em." It is a CD writing program, but don't ask me to explain further . . . --------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 From: Iain Brown, i_brown@compuserve.com After a traumatic week, I now find myself toast and experiencing bruxism. If my life story ever gets written, I should imagine it will be a pathography rather than a hagiography. Does someone want to granny dump me somewhere? ---[3] FYI ----------------------------------------------------------- ** [3at] Glamorous grammar Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 From: Ros Anderson, r.anderson@lancaster.ac.uk I'm not sure how to take Jane Kerr's article "glamorous grammar" Is it meant to be satirical, has she made it up? If so, I find some of her examples are rather bizarre and irrelevant. For example, I see nothing wrong with Shakespeare's "like an arrow shot ...hits the mark .... This is a grammatical error only in that he says 'like' instead of 'as'. The sentence has no connection with the horrible modern-day misuse of 'like' in a sentence such as I feel'LIKE' I want to be sick (I do when I hear that!). Secondly, I object to being told that I am trying to be hypercorrect when I use 'whom'. I ALWAYS use 'whom' in writing and often in speech where it applies, as I was taught to do at my good grammar school and shall continue to do so, despite the fact that Jane Kerr thinks it is 'fading away'. It is only fading away as so much articulate speech is fading away through lack of being taught in schools. The result of all this scorn of grammar will be a society communicating only in inarticulate grunts, something which is already happening. --------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 From: Jane Kerr, bywater@zetnet.co.uk I can't, in fact, claim the credit for writing last week's item on grammar, taken from an article by Philip Howard which appeared in _The Times_. (See the credit line at the beginning of the article in Edline 2.35.) I presumed that Mr Howard's intent *was* satire, but I thought that the article would prove thought-provoking and perhaps controversial for EDline readers. And so it seems! Incidentally, I have been known to use the word "whom" myself. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [3au] Writer's researcher Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 From: Toni Walker, toni@nls.net I will provide research for writer's (fiction/non-fiction) for a fee of $15.00 per hour. A flat fee may be arranged for large projects or on- going research through completion of writing project. I hold an MA in Education, BA in psychology, and enjoy history, art history, drama, science-fiction, sociology, anthropology, and anything related to the above. ---[4] Business matters ---------------------------------------------- ** [4y] Jury service Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 From: Martyn Yeo, wordwise@cix.compulink.co.uk Corinne Orde wrote: > Alison Woodhouse asked about financial compensation for jury > service. [...] I simply got my accountant to write a letter > [...] and received a nice fat cheque from the Crown Court > [...] I didn't get to sit on any cases, but I did get a lot of > proofreading done. Be warned, it's very boring [...] so take > plenty of copy-editing or proofreading to do in the waiting room. I assume that Corinne has deducted what she earned reading proofs in the waiting room from the compensation she has claimed, and that she believes her clients got good value for money having their proofs read in such an environment! The general point she makes, though, is valid and correct, that anyone having to undertake jury service should be compensated on a fair basis for loss of earnings. But: 1. We don't all have an accountant; I don't earn enough to be able to afford one. Would a copy of last year's accounts and a well reasoned letter do? 2. How about allowing for loss of potential earnings - like a publisher with a short-deadline job hanging up because she got our answering machine? ---[5] Bookmark ----------------------------------------------------- Date: Thur, 4 Sep 1997 From: Gabriella Tenner, getenner@mail.retina.ar Remember my quote about the role of language in a free society? [In EDline 2.35] Well, good Internet! Here I send the bookmark where you can find the complete text by Dana Gioia: < http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/poetry/gioia/gioia.htm > ---[6] Just for fun -------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 From: Jane Kerr, bywater@zetnet.co.uk I heard someone on TV recently saying that, because of the negotiations about the Single European Currency, French-German relations had reached "an all-time low". Somehow, I don't think so ... +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ "Worst analogies ever written in a high school essay", no. 17 The thunder was ominous-sounding, much like the sound of a thin sheet of metal being shaken backstage during the storm scene in a play. ---------------------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 From: Jane Lyle, jlyle@indiana.edu Mark Levinson wrote: > I find it hard to believe that any of this series ever actually > appeared in a high school essay. Mark is correct--these were not written by high school students. "Worst Analogies Ever Written in a High School Essay" was a writing contest sponsored by a newspaper in Washington, D.C., the Washington Post, as part of its "Style Invitational." The entries were *meant* to be outrageous and to make you groan. The original list began circulating on the Net a year or two ago and, like so many humor lists, was added to along the way. (At one time there was a Web site where people could post their own additions to the list.) It's been a while now, but I would guess that there is still information about it available on the Web. Until an e-mail folder purge earlier this spring, I had the original list saved in my humor folder, complete with the names and cities of those who had contributed the winning and "honorable mention" entries. ---[8] Administration ------------------------------------------------ EDline provides the opportunity for a weekly online discussion of matters editorial and editorial business. * POSTING MESSAGES TO THE LIST All messages to be posted to the list should be sent to either Jane Kerr, at: bywater@zetnet.co.uk or Iain Brown, at: i_brown@compuserve.com Include as the subject line, "EDline [topic]", where [topic] is the subject under discussion. Topics might include areas such as Grammar, Spelling, American English or Punctuation. Messages should be pertinent to the basic premise of the list; they may be withheld, or redirected if more pertinent to one of the other mailing lists. The spelling and grammar of messages will *not* be corrected, but some editing of length may be undertaken. Quoting from previous messages: quote as much as you need to make the context of your reply clear, but no more. * Administration All messages of a subscription or administrative nature should be directed to Iain Brown at: i_brown@compuserve.com with "EDline ADMIN" in the subject line. * To subscribe to Grapevine To subscribe to Grapevine, the discussion list concerned with matters computing, please e-mail Electric Editors at: ElectricEds@bigfoot.com with [Subscribe Grapevine] in the subject line. * To subscribe to LANGline To subscribe to LANGline, which discusses modern languages, translation and editing in non-English languages, please e-mail Electric Editors at: ElectricEds@bigfoot.com with [Subscribe LANGline] in the subject line. *Homepage and back issues: Visit the Electric Editors at: < http://www.ikingston.demon.co.uk/ee/home.htm > Back issues of all three mailing lists are available on the Mailing Lists archive page. --------- ** The views expressed in this mailing list are strictly those of the individual contributors, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the moderators or of the Electric Editors. ** Articles (c) 1997, by individual contributors Design (c) 1996, 1997 Iain Brown =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= END OF EDline 2.36 Next issue: 14 September 1997 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=