=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= EDline Vol. 3, no. 45 (8 November 1998) Editorial mailing list Published by the Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Contents: [1] Editorial Q & A---previous queries [2fg] Adjectives in US English [2fp] Statistics terminology [2ft] Capitalising Spanish characters Q & A---new queries [2fu] Bookseller: French, German, or European editions [2fv] Saints [2fw] Trends in quotation marks Business matters---previous posting [4bp] Editorial charges Business matters---new postings [4bq] E-mail charges [4br] Seminar leaders wanted [5] Bookmarks [6] Just for fun [7] Miscellaneous Help! Seeking ex-Nelson employees [8] Administration =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ---[1] Editorial ---------------------------------------------- The Electric Editors are delighted to announce that the EE web site has just received a Links2Go Key Resource award in the Editorials topic. For further information see: < http://www.links2go.com/topic/Editorials > On a different subject, apologies for the lateness of this issue, caused by the Moderator deciding that five days' work was not sufficient, and so spent the weekend poring over the workings of a network cluster. The network is up and running properly again, and with the despatch of this EDline, the Moderator can now catch up on his sleep. Good night! Iain Brown ---[2] Q & A -------------------------------------------------- ** [2fg] Adjectives in US English Date: Tues, 3 Nov 1998 From: Jane Kerr, bywater@zetnet.co.uk A footnote to the -al/no -al thread: one of my (American) authors styles himself "Professor of Urologic Oncology", and gives his department as "Urological Surgery". There's a box of chocolates in it for anyone who can satisfactorily explain this distinction! +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2fp] Statistics terminology Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 From: Karin Walker, K.Walker@hw.ac.uk Harriet Stewart-Jones wanted some advice on statistics books: > Can anyone recommend a good, reliable reference book on the > terms used in statistics (mostly medical)? I don't want to > become an expert, I just want to be able to state the correct > forms for Kruskal-Wallis, Student's t-test, Cronbach's alpha, > etc. and to understand how and when they are used. At Edinburgh University, my statistics course (for use in Linguistics) used two very helpful books which made statistics seem much less difficult, if still not more fun: Statistics explained (for Social Sciences) by Perry Hinton, Routledge (1995) This is a really readable book that strongly focuses on the why as well as the how of statistical tests. It includes all the basic tests as well as a good discussion of all types of ANOVAs. also: Learning to use statistical tests in psychology, by Judith Green and Manuela d'Oliveira, OUP (1994, I think) This is slightly more difficult to read but it does go into a bit more detail. I hope this is available where you are, any good British book store would stock at least one of these. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2ft] Capitalising Spanish characters Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 From: Simon Cauchi, cauchi@wave.co.nz Julie Bauer wrote: > When using the surnames of Spanish characters (ie. Rafael de > Silva) to start a sentence, should the de remain lower case > because that's the way his name is spelt or should it be upper > case to start the sentence? It should be upper case to start the sentence (I wonder, though, if this man should be called "de Silva" or plain "Silva"). In an index, the heading would be "Silva, Rafael de". Anne B. Piternick in her article "Name of an author!" (The Indexer, Vol. 18, No. 2, October 1992) refers to "Derek de Solla Price" at the start of one sentence and then starts a later sentence with "De Solla Price". Her reference note, though, begins "de Solla Price, Derek J. ..." Granted this man is an American, but I think the principle applies generally. A similar problem arises with book titles. If a title such as _the bone people_ begins a sentence, should the initial be upper case? I think so, and in my more rebellious moments I think the title should be given in the normal style for book titles, _The Bone People_, despite the author's stated preference for lower case. --------------------- Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 From: Mandy Macdonald, 100754.3643@compuserve.com You would capitalize the 'de' at the beginning of the sentence; but you would not capitalize in an index. Indeed -- unless your de Silva was a British or US citizen (presumably also Australian, NZ, Canadian, etc.) your index entry would be 'Silva, Rafael de' (Butcher, 1979 edn). In the Anglophone countries index entries usually begin with the prefix (Butcher cites De Quincey), but can be counted in the alphabetical order under the inital letter of the 'main' element of the name. However, I wonder whether that is as true of the USA now, with its enormous Hispanophone population, as it was in 1979. And what would the usage be with Spanish names in the Philippines and Portuguese ones in Sri Lanka or East Timor? +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2fu] Bookseller: French, German, or European editions Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 From: Patricia Benet, PatBenet@aol.com Can anyone identify and name any publications similar to the UK's _Bookseller_ that exist in Germany, France or on a European level? I am basically trying to understand the childrens and overall book market from a booksellers' and publishers' perspective. An other alternative would be any existing good market research report that explains this information. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2fv] Saints Date: Tues, 3 Nov 1998 From: Eddie Kent, eddie.kent@zetnet.co.uk Hart, as well as most commentators, recommends that street is abbreviated to st. whereas saint becomes st (without a dot) because st. is an abbreviation and st is a contraction. This makes good sense. How, then, should one write the name of Lindbergh's aeroplane? A glance at a photograph of the machine shows that the name is painted on as 'Spirit of St. Louis'. Perhaps one should insert an editorial [sic] after 'st.'. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2fw] Trends in quotation marks Date: Thurs, 5 Nov 1998 From: Joy Burrough, burrough@bos.nl It used to be that the default quotation marks in British English were single, but in US English they were double. I now see double quotation marks being used in various British publications, so I'd be interested to hear from copyeditors working in the UK to what extent they think this is the thin end of the wedge. Are single quotation marks becoming unfashionable? Related to this is my observation that much of the English text generated in the Netherlands uses the Dutch system of quotation marks. This means that you use double quotation marks for *real* quotes, but single quotation marks to emphasise or highlight words in the text. Here's an example: ...Dutch people are very confident of their English and do not always believe native English-speakers when they are accused of committing Dunglishisms. ''Dunglish is perfectly understandable by all Dutch people, and as a result it has become acceptable here.'' But, XXX calls this 'virtual' English, and warns against using it for a wider international audience. It's easy to overlook this subtle use of double and single quotation marks to distinguish between quotations and highlighted words. I've seen it reproduced in the _Journal of Applied Linguistics_. Were the editors aware of what the Dutch author of the article in question was doing with quotation marks? Is this distinction between ' ' and " " acceptable? Is there any tendency whatsoever for native-speaker English to adopt the Dutch distinction between the two types of quotation mark? I was so confused by Michael Quinion's use of the two types of mark in his otherwise excellent WORLD WIDE WORDS that I wrote to him to ask what he was up to. This resulted in him abandoning the use of " " to indicate italics, in favour of underlines. But his use of quotation marks remains idiosyncratic, and is incomprehensible to me. Here's an example, in which he explains the word CACOGRAPHY: > Bad handwriting or bad spelling. > We should use this word more, it's too useful and relevant to > let it fade away. It derives from the Greek 'graphos', > "writing", prefixed with 'kakos', "bad". We're more familiar > with this as the beginning of 'cacophony', "bad noises"; > despite the association of ideas, it has nothing to do with > our 'cack-handed', which derives from Old English 'cack', > "excrement". When 'cacography' began to appear in English at > the end of the sixteenth century it did so with the sense of > "bad spelling". It was beginning to be thought that the old > way of spelling words by personal preference ought to give > way to a standardised system; the introduction of printing had > a lot to do with this. So 'cacography' was seen as the > opposite of 'orthography', "correct spelling". In the following > century it was also used to mean bad handwriting, as the > opposite of yet a third Greek word, 'calligraphy', "fine > writing". The word is marked as archaic in my dictionaries, > though it still turns up from time to time. A typical usage > was that by the horror writer H P Lovecraft, who described the > manuscript of his novel _Quebeck_ as "136 pages of crabbed > cacography" (in reference presumably to the handwriting rather > than the spelling). Someone who exhibits either failing is a > 'cacographer'. > > WORLD WIDE WORDS is a weekly newsletter on language written by > Michael Quinion. Copyright (c) Michael B Quinion 1998. All > rights reserved. World Wide Words is at > < http://www.quinion.demon.co.uk/words/ > and > < http://www.clever.net/quinion/words/ >. > Reproduction of this mailing in electronic mailing lists or > newsgroups in whole or in part is permitted, provided that > this copyright notice is included uncut. Reproducing any part > of this mailing in printed or other electronic media requires > prior permission from the author. I'd be interested in hearing EDliners' views. ---[4] Business matters --------------------------------------- ** [4bp] Editorial charges Date: Tues, 3 Nov 1998 From: Judyth Mermelstein, Judyth_Mermelstein@babylon.montreal.qc.ca Darcy De Leon wrote: > I was wondering if you have information on how much to charge > editing a novel - especially if there's a lot of substantive > editing needed (restructuring awkward sentences) in addition to > copyediting and proofreading. Oh, boy! My off-the-cuff answer is "How long is a piece of string?" It's simply impossible to quote a stock price on something as variable as a novel. I generally work as an author's editor for literary writers (i.e., supporting myself and my habit by other means) and insist on seeing the full manuscript before attempting to give a price. Then I apply a steeply sliding scale, depending on a guess at how much work I will need to do and the author's degree of solvency. I also factor in the timetable: a rush job means I can't take other, more lucrative work; an author who can wait an extra month while I deal with a commercial contract gets my "I can pay the rent!" discount. Levity aside, I suspect that pricing calls for a thorough calculation of how long it will take to do the work, including additional passes for line editing and proofreading after the substantive work is done and also including the time needed for consultations with the author. If your client is a legitimate publisher, there is probably a predetermined budget for the project and a market rate for editors. Here in Canada, the too-frequent approach is "This needs 20 hours of light copy editing" at the going rate; if the manuscript needs a lot more work or the editor insists on doing a better job, there is no additional payment for it. Pardon my cynicism here, but this means they have budgeted about $1000 CDN for the editing and proofreading, and you can count on the project taking at least twice as long as they say, with the predictable dilemma of "do I stick to the timetable or do it properly for half the rate?" If your client is the author, editing will be an out-of-pocket expense not reimbursed by the publisher and probably not covered by an advance. If the author has a good day job, you may be able to charge for the time you will actually put in. Otherwise, the crucial questions are "Do I believe in this book enough to subsidize it with my labour?" and "How little can I live on while I do this work?" My minimum charge is the market rate for typing the manuscript ($1.50 per standard ms. page); my maximum would be what I charge for commercial projects ($35 per hour); my usual charge falls somewhere between the two, generally at the lower end. A book involving several drafts (first to final) edited over about a year might involve 500 hours and fees around $2000...but, after all, I'm not just doing it for the money and it covers the cigarettes I smoke while I'm working on it. You'd think I'd have a better answer after 30 years, but I don't. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [4bq] E-mail charges Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 From: Helen Juden, helen@juden.demon.co.uk I have just edited a substantial contributed book, and for the first time I have made extensive use of e-mail to communicate with the editors, contributors and client. Now I am wondering how to charge the client for this expense. Have others been through the exercise of estimating the cost? +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [4br] Seminar leaders wanted Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 From: Denyse O'Leary, oleary@interlog.com A call for editors in the Greater Toronto Area (Ontario, Canada) to give seminars I am hoping to develop a one-day seminar on work opportunities for book editors in fields other than book publishing. The course, aimed at freelance editors and editing trainees, would be given at a community college in the Toronto area. I am hoping to make contact with experienced editors -- presently working mainly in non-traditional areas that require editorial skills -- who would be willing to teach a module of the seminar, probably on a Saturday. Remuneration will be provided. For example, I am looking for an editor who can speak from experience on any of the following areas: 1. freelance editing and proofreading for corporations (annual reports, form letters, and such) as a substantial proportion of business 2. web site editing 3. online editing and sending work via the Internet 4. freelancing as an editor or proofreader for government departments. (Contracts are okay as long as you are not classed as a permanent employee.) 5. acting as editor on special purpose curricula for school boards or industry training bodies 6. acting as editor on documents and publications of various kinds for non-profit organizations 7. preparing newsletters and inhouse magazines for non-profit and profit organizations as a substantial portion of income If there are non-traditional areas that I have not thought of, I would be indebted to anyone who might wish to propose them to me at the e-mail address below -- especially if that person lives in the Greater Toronto Area and might consider teaching a section of the seminar. The purpose of the seminar is, of course, to assist new graduates of the editing programs and working editors who are affected by publishing industry slowdowns in finding work that is related to their training. It is my view, based on experience, that there is a lot of work out there, more than enough for all of us, but that a certain amount of direction may be needed in finding it. In addition to being eager to hear from anyone who might assist me, I am glad to receive comments about the proposed course in general. I am a member of the Editors' Association of Canada and the developer and instructor of the course Developing a Business as a Freelance Editor, taught at George Brown College. Denyse O'Leary oleary@interlog.com Tel 416 485-2392 Fax 416 485-9665 ---[5] Bookmarks ----------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 From: Sue Lightfoot, SLightfoot@compuserve.com Quoted on IndexL: the CIA World Fact Book is considered the authority on country names and other geographical information. You can find the 1997 book at the following site. < http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html > ---[6] Just for fun ------------------------------------------- "Beguiling ideas about science", no. 30 Rain is saved up in cloud banks. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ "It CAN be done", no. 14 Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction. --- Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872 ---[7] Miscellaneous ------------------------------------------ Help! Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 From: Jane Bryant, jane@snocat.com For my sins, a few years ago I produced for the SFEP a design for envelope reuse labels, which proved quite popular. They have also caused me a few problems; because my address is on the bottom of the label, undeliverable mail is invariably returned to *me*. I then have to open the envelope (which I admit I hate doing) in an effort to find out to whom I should return the undelivered mail. Not too long ago I had eight or nine undelivered items to deal with, all 'spec' letters to publishers asking for work - and all to addresses that didn't exist. Things have been quiet for the last few months, but this morning a parcel arrived. It had been sent to someone in Israel and not delivered because whoever sent it did not put a customs declaration on it - nor did they put a sender's address *or anything inside the parcel (apart from the item) to indicate who it's from*. If anyone out there has recently sent a small package to a Mrs Freeman in Israel, please contact me, tell me what was in the package, and I'll send it back to you so you can send it - correctly this time - to the intended recipient. I'll hang on to it, but I'd much rather it went on its way. This is a salutary lesson - always put sender's address on something you post, especially if the labels you use have someone else's address on the bottom. I'm getting a bit fed up of wasting time, effort and postage sorting out someone else's mistakes. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Seeking ex-Nelson employees Date: Tues, 3 Nov 1998 From: David Finkelstein, d.finkelstein@napier.ac.uk Did you work at Thomas Nelson and Sons? 1998 marks the bicentenary of the arrival of Thomas Nelson on the Scottish publishing scene. To mark this occasion a reminiscence project of former employees from the company's last factory, Parkside Works at Dalkeith Road, Edinburgh, is being undertaken by the SAPPHIRE Project at Napier University, Edinburgh (Scottish Archive of Print and Publishing History Records), in conjunction with SPRAT and the People's Story Museum of the City of Edinburgh Council. SAPPHIRE would like to invite former Thomas Nelson and Sons employees to an initial meeting of the project on Tuesday 24 November 1998, from 2pm to 4pm at Abden House, Marchhall Crescent, Edinburgh, the former home of the Nelson family. This will be an informal get-together which may provide contact with past colleagues, and the possibility of oral memories being recorded. Light refreshments will be provided. Arrangements will also be made at the meeting for a further series of gatherings to record people's memories of their work at Nelsons. In addition to this informal get together, we are also interested in contacting former employees who would be interested in participating in the Nelson reminiscence project but are unable to attend this meeting, perhaps because of their geographical location. One possible channel for the recording of their memories is through the creation of an e-mail reminiscence project which would entail conducting reminiscence work through this medium. The work on Thomas Nelson and Sons will form part of a number of studies within the SAPPHIRE project, based in the Scottish Centre for the Book at Napier University, Edinburgh. SAPPHIRE has been developed in conjunction with a number of educational, professional and noncommercial bodies to form the first sustained, focused attempt to record data on the social, economic and cultural history of the twentieth century Scottish print and publishing industry. SAPPHIRE will create a substantial oral and social history archive and database over a period of three years which will be deposited as a permanent archive within the Edward Clark Collection at Napier. The project will also provide the basis for a series of initiatives benefiting Scottish heritage and educational communities, through the publication of a series of books and short publications, a possible major exhibition in Edinburgh in 2001, and a wide range of archival material for educational research projects. For further information please contact: Dr Heather Holmes Research Fellow SAPPHIRE Project Scottish Centre for the Book Napier University Craighouse Campus Craighouse Road Edinburgh, EH10 5LG Tel: 0121-455 6154 E-mail h.holmes@napier.ac.uk Visit our website at < http://www.pmpc.napier.ac.uk/scob/scob.html > ---[8] Administration ------------------------------------------ EDline provides the opportunity for a weekly online discussion of matters editorial and editorial business. * POSTING MESSAGES TO THE LIST All messages to be posted to the list should be sent to Iain Brown, at: i_brown@compuserve.com Include as the subject line, "EDline [topic]", where [topic] is the subject under discussion. Topics might include areas such as Grammar, Spelling, American English or Punctuation. Messages should be pertinent to the basic premise of the list; they may be withheld, or redirected if more pertinent to one of the other mailing lists. The spelling and grammar of messages will *not* be corrected, but some editing of length may be undertaken. Quoting from previous messages: quote as much as you need to make the context of your reply clear, but no more. The sections of EDline are as follows: [2] Q & A -- questions and answers [3] FYI -- items of general interest [4] Business matters -- items of a business nature [5] Bookmarks -- useful Web pages [6] Just for fun -- time for letting hair down! [7] Miscellaneous -- odds and sods * Administration All messages of a subscription or administrative nature should be directed to Jane Kerr, at: bywater@zetnet.co.uk with "EDline ADMIN" in the subject line. * To subscribe to Grapevine To subscribe to Grapevine, the discussion list concerned with matters computing, please e-mail Electric Editors at: ElectricEds@bigfoot.com with [Subscribe Grapevine] in the subject line. * To subscribe to LANGline To subscribe to LANGline, which discusses modern languages, translation and editing in non-English languages, please e-mail Electric Editors at: ElectricEds@bigfoot.com with [Subscribe LANGline] in the subject line. * Homepage and back issues: Visit the Electric Editors at: < http://www.ikingston.demon.co.uk/ee/home.htm > Back issues of all three mailing lists are available on the Mailing Lists archive page. --------- ** The views expressed in this mailing list are strictly those of the individual contributors, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the moderators or of the Electric Editors. ** Articles (c) 1998, by individual contributors Design (c) 1996, 1997, Iain Brown Compilation (c) 1998, The Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= END OF EDline 3.45 Next issue: 15 November 1998 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=