=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= EDline Vol. 6, no. 48 (2 December 2001) Editorial mailing list (digest version) Published by the Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Contents: Q & A [2qg] Cherubims [2qi] Usage of "couple" [2qj] Usage of "this Friday" and "next Friday" [Offshoot of [2qi] Usage of "couple"] [2qk] "Y'all" as a singular? [Offshoot of [2qi] Usage of "couple"] [2ql] "Yo como pan" = "I eat bread" [2qm] "Affected from" or "affected by"? [2qn] Capitals [2qo] Plural or singular subject? [2qp] George Harrison and plagiarism FYI [3gt] Call for Papers: "Journal of Media Economics" Business matters [4fi] Numbers of freelance editors and proofreaders? [4fj] E-Learning [4fk] Copy editor for Website, BMJ Unified [5] Bookmarks [8] Administration =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ---[2] Q & A --------------------------------------------------- ** [2qg] Cherubims Date: Tues, 27 Nov 2001 From: Christine Shuttleworth, cshuttle@dircon.co.uk Eddie Kent wrote: > cherub n. 1 (pl. cherubim) an angelic being of the second order > of the celestial hierarchy. > > [Old English cherubin, ultimately from Hebrew kerub, pl. > kerubi^m] > > Isn't there a song? Light operetta type. I seem to remember > from my mother's ghastly musical taste. Yoel Strimling wrote: > I think that was "Cheery bim, cheery bum". :) I'm not sure if Yoel was joking, but I think the tune Eddie has in mind is called 'Ciribiribin' (the c pronounced ch, Italian style, before the i). Don't ask me how this floated up from some murky part of my subconscious. My musical taste must have something in common with Eddie's mother's. ----------------------- Date: Tues, 27 Nov 2001 From: Eddie Kent, edlineek@aol.com > I think the tune Eddie has in mind is called 'Ciribiribin' That's it. Used to hear it regularly on Sunday mornings, light programme I imagine. Seeing it written down brings it back in all its hideous clarity. Perhaps someone can now tell me where I can get it. ----------------------- Date: Tues, 27 Nov 2001 From: Kathleen Lyle, edserve@klyle.demon.co.uk Christine Shuttleworth wrote: > I'm not sure if Yoel was joking, but I think the tune Eddie has > in mind is called 'Ciribiribin' (the c pronounced ch, Italian > style, before the i). Yes, and there is/was a famous recording of it by American singer Grace Moore. It was one of the records I used to play on my grandparents' wind-up gramophone many decades ago. ----------------------- Date: Tues, 27 Nov 2001 From: Bob Davenport, bob@bobdavenport.freeserve.co.uk And another by the trumpeter Harry James. ---------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 From: Anna Beth McCormack, mccormack@goulburn.net.au Christine Shuttleworth wrote: > I think the tune Eddie has in mind is called 'Ciribiribin' (the > c pronounced ch, Italian style, before the i). As I child I remember my mother singing this. I thought she was singing 'Cheery beery bin' and always wondered how a garbage 'bin' could be 'cheery beery' (though some people were regularly so). ---------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 From: Yoel Strimling, yoel@docustar.co.il While this is all very enlightening, the song I was referring to (yes, it was a joke) was the Yiddish "Cheery bim, cheery bum". But we digress... +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2qi] Usage of "couple" Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 From: Helen Juden, helen@juden.demon.co.uk [Originally cross-posted from LANGline] Carola Crosse wrote: > I have a question about the usage of the word "couple" in > different English-speaking countries. > > I learned my English in Great Britain, and as far as I know, > "couple" is used similarly to the German "paar" - a couple > being 2 people, but a couple of days being anything between 2 > and, well, several. Now I have repeatedly had arguments with an > Australian which resulted from me saying I'd call him in a > couple of days, meaning like 3 or 4 or maybe 5, and him being > angry when I didn't call exactly 2 days later. > > So in Australian usage, does "a couple" always mean only 2? > What about in American and British usage? Did I get something > wrong there or was he just hearing what he wanted to? The other day I was editing a scientific paper written by a German in English. It included words to the effect that there were "a couple of reasons" for something or other, so I was taken aback when he went on to list three things. I realised that he was translating "ein paar" and edited it to "a few". To me, in British English "couple" means "two", and if I don't mean two I use another word. Both Oxford and Chambers dictionaries define "couple" as two or nearly two (e.g. a couple of hours). My Collins German/English dictionary defines "ein paar" as pair, couple, or few My Webster's USA dictionary does not include "couple" meaning "a few", but clearly it is used in this way in some territories. ---------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 From: Hilary Royston, Hilary.Royston@reededucation.com.au As an Australian born and bred, I think 'couple of days' in Australia usage is about 2, and 3 at the outset. 'A couple' is less that 'a few days' which is 3­4. Both are inside of a working week. If I called someone back after 5 days when I had said 'a couple', I would be apologising for the delay. If I didn't intend to call them back before 5 days, I'd either say 'I'll call you 'by the end of the week' or 'next week'. ---------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 From: Iwan Thomas, iwan@frame.org.uk A similar usage applies in South Wales: a "couple" means a few, as in "I'll see you in a couple of hours". ---------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 From: Yoel Strimling, yoel@docustar.co.il South Africans do a similar thing. If they tell you they are going to do something: "Just now" = In a little bit (could be days or weeks) "Now now" = soon "Right now" = almost immediately. It can be very frustrating to an American who, when told that something will be done just now, doesn't get it immediately. ---------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 From: Anne Waddingham, Waddingham@compuserve.com Carola Crosse wrote: > So in Australian usage, does "a couple" always mean only 2? > What about in American and British usage? Did I get something > wrong there or was he just hearing what he wanted to? I don't think it's anything to do with cultural differences - more to do with mindsets. You've touched a raw nerve with me, though, as my husband drives me crazy saying things like: "I'll do it in a couple of days", meaning a week. I take this as carte blanche to start nagging (sorry, reminding him) on the 3rd day - in my book, couple means "_two_"! In his world, "a few days" means two weeks, and "a week or two" means a month. Maybe it's a man thing! ---------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 From: Michele Clarke, Michele.Clarke@btinternet.com Think yourself lucky. A few days in my male half's world probably means a few months. I have a reminder blackboard in the kitchen. Some notices have been there growing mould for many months. ---------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 From: David Ibbetson, isserlis@rogers.com In Henry IV Part I we have a scene where the waiter keeps calling "Anon, anon, Sir" but, every time he starts to go to the customer he's called back. Since procrastination is older than the word, words and phrases that mean at once quickly come to mean soon, and then never. So they have to be replaced by new words and phrases. ---------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 From: Susan Roberts, susan.l.roberts@saic.com In the southern states of the U.S.A., the usage of "couple" actually means "two." I was surprised to read some in the U.S. mean a "few" when they use the word "couple." ---------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 From: David Penfold, penfold@eps-edge.demon.co.uk Similarly, "presently" in the UK means soon or in a little while, whereas I believe that in the US it means now! I have always used couple to mean that I am aiming at two, but not quite sure that I can be that precise. (As Michele points out, this can mean quite a stretch sometimes.) ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Alex Gray, wordworks@gairloch.co.uk I think the normal British usage is to mean exactly two, with "a few" used for anything less precise. But as others have observed, the tendency to procrastination and obfuscation when it comes to specifying a time or a deadline makes 'couple' an attractive word because it sounds precise when given, but can be disclaimed later as having been meant only as an approximation! I think in scientific, technical or official work it is strictly two, with no variation acceptable. It's a favourite with builders/plumbers/electricians, especially here in the north-west Highlands of Scotland where they don't have any concept as urgent as man~ana, nor any view of the future beyond 'a couple of days'! ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Eddie Kent, edlineek@aol.com To an engineer a couiple is a pair of equal and parallel forces acting in opposite directions, and tending to cause rotation about an axis perpendicular to the plane containing them. Thus, exactly two. Also bear in mind that in some circles couple means copulate; managing this with more than two is an interesting concept. I believe in fox-hunting circles hounds come in couples -- you don't have 12 but six-couple, for instance. If couple is going to mean anything other than two, how about brace? (" I'll be with you in a brace of shakes ". Pick the bones out of that one.) ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: David Ibbetson, isserlis@rogers.com Small game comes in "braces", pairs tied together for carrying over a stick. These days they are more likely to go loose in a game-bag, but they are still counted in braces. ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: David Penfold, penfold@eps-edge.demon.co.uk Which reminds me of a (group of engineers/scientists playing a) game of charades, when one of the subjects chosen was 'the moment of a couple' (in scientific terms, this is the product of one of the forces and the distance between them). I can't remember the outcome - unfortunately! ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Merv Littmann, mervynn@ozemail.com.au Whatever the outcome, as we were taught in Physics I: Every couple has its moments. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2qj] Usage of "this Friday" and "next Friday" [Offshoot of [2qi] Usage of "couple"] Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 From: Hilary Royston, Hilary.Royston@reededucation.com.au Another fruitful topic of conversation is the usage of 'this Friday' and 'next Friday' etc., which seems to differ among English-speaking nations and age groups. After a few misunderstandings between me and my Irish-born designer, I use 'this coming Friday' and try to mention the date as well! +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2qk] "Y'all" as a singular? [Offshoot of [2qi] Usage of "couple"] Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Caroline Burns, carolinegburns@hotmail.com Oh boy Susan Roberts! You've triggered up a can-tipping pile of worms in me! Not anything you've said, really, but instead the mere coupling in one message of Southern and 'two.' I would love the input of all out there with opinions -- or should I say, would all of y'all please reply? The query is this: is it grammatically (idomatically, dialectically, factually) incorrect for television and movies to depict Southern persons using y'all as a singular? You might guess that I think it is. But am I wrong? It has long grated on my nerves to see people in movies using y'all as a singular. Just lately it has started to impinge on my own usage -- I feel as though I am setting a bad emample, for instance, when I say to one member of a couple or family: "I hope y'all enjoy your weekend away." Are Hollywood people lurking nearby, drawing ill-informed conclusions? I'm desparate, edliners. Please help. ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Yoel Strimling, yoel@docustar.co.il As a native southerner, I use "y'all" in both the plural and singular. However, I've been told by my elders that it "used t'be" that "y'all" was singular, and "all y'all" was plural. But I'd definitely disagree with you that "y'all", as singular, would be incorrect. Thass jes mah two cents. :) ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Michael Fitch, michaelbfitch@supanet.com I am surprised by Yoel's answer, but bow to his greater knowledge of this. I am currently attending a Spanish class that uses material obtained from < http://www.studyspanish.com > Various features point to this site being based in the USA, e.g. 'salud' being translated into English as 'gesundheit'. The phrase 'you speak' is only used for the singular - the plural is referred to as 'you-all speak', which I took to be a general (and not merely southern) US usage. Has anyone else come across this style in language teaching materials? ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Michele Clarke, Michele.Clarke@btinternet.com When I have visited the lovely South, many people used yous'all for plural. ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Caroline Burns, carolinegburns@hotmail.com Really? I've always thought 'all y'all' just meant more people than you could look in the eyes at one time. ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Susan Roberts, susan.l.roberts@saic.com As also a native southerner, we ONLY used the word "yall" when speaking with more than one person. Otherwise, we would simply use the word "you." For example, to two, three, or infinite people standing around a customer counter: "Have yall been waited on?" To only one standing by the counter: "Have you been waited on?" Michele Clarke wrote: > When I have visited the lovely South, many people used yous'all > for plural. In southern Texas and southern Louisiana, only transplanted northerners use the word "yous" Yoel Strimling wrote: > As a native southerner, I use "y'all" in both the plural and > singular. However, I've been told by my elders that it "used > t'be" that "y'all" was singular, and "all y'all" was plural. I'm not sure where your relatives live, but certainly not in Texas nor Louisiana. Perhaps they do that in Mississippi or Arkansas. Also perhaps, however, you need to re-verify your understanding from your elders -- I'm guessing you misunderstood them. One major problem with Hollywood when depicting a southerner: THE FAKE ACCENT! With regard to the usage of "yall" -- as you can tell, I have run into this question quite often over the last decade while living in various locations of the USA and Canada. Hollywood (and Yoel Strimling) are mistaken that "y'all" (or also appropriately written "yall") is singular. It is the contraction of "you all." ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Alex Gray, wordworks@gairloch.co.uk In Scotland it is completely everyday usage to say 'yous' for plural 'you'. ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Lane P. Lester, llester@simpub.com I, too, am a native Southerner, and I confirm what you said. There may be Southerners who use the terms incorrectly, but then there are Northerners as well who use bad grammar. [grin] ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: John Crane, jc@john-crane.com I'm another native Southerner (born in and 20 years in Mississippi, 5 years in Alabama, and 30 years in Florida) who will confirm it. A Southerner might say something like "Ya'll come over sometime " to an individual, meaning "you and your family," but I don't remember ever hearing it addressed to an individual per se -- except in the movies by actors with atrociously fake Southern accents. ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Sally Nicholls, sallynicholls@ga.prestige.net At this point I have to ask: when did it become necessary to discuss the grammatical merits of slang? Next we'll be debating the correct usage of y'uns! ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: John Crane, jc@john-crane.com First, I would ask, why not? Don't editors ever have to deal with slang? Second, I would note that "you all" isn't at all slang, it's word usage. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Mary Ellen Osowski, maryellen.osowski@curriculumassociates.com It may not be necessary but it is interesting linguistically whether standard English or not. Susan Roberts wrote: > ... are mistaken that "y'all" (or also appropriately written > "yall") is singular. It is the contraction of "you all." My understanding as well. I'm familiar with how these pronouns are used in Louisville, KY: you for singular and y'all for plural. The South covers a very large geographical area of the US. Differences in usage are probably regional dialects. > In southern Texas and southern Louisiana, only transplanted > northerners use the word "yous" Likely that they're from New York City or Chicago. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Eddie Kent, edlineek@aol.com Susan Roberts writes: > In southern Texas and southern Louisiana, only transplanted > northerners use the word "yous" I'm pretty sure Damon Runyon has 'yous guys'. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Judy Stein, jstein@panix.com > I'm pretty sure Damon Runyon has 'yous guys' "Youse guys" also "Whassamatta wichouse?" (not necessarily in Damon Runyon, but heard often in Noo Yawk) ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Susan Roberts, susan.l.roberts@saic.com I'm not sure what Damon Runyon has to do with the lack of Southerners using the word "yous" -- but just to share a little about the author you point out for us: He is probably best known for his work "Guys and Dolls." He was born in Kansas and was raised in Colorado -- neither place qualifies as one of the Southern states. He did have an interesting life, however, and I recommend a read of a biography on him. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name nor author of the book I read. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Gregg Berry, Gregg.Berry@affa.gov.au In Australia, the use of 'yous' as the plural of 'you' is definitely frowned upon. It's seen as an indicator of a very low level of education in the speaker. Indeed, in Nick Hudson's 'Modern Australian Usage' he says "the word 'yous' is today regarded as a barbarism". ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Susan Roberts, susan.l.roberts@saic.com And kicking that dead cat, once again: See, there is a reason why "yall" should become part of the standard -- "yous" just sounds silly! ;-p Good night to yall on my side of the world. G'day to Gregg way over there! +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2ql] "Yo como pan" = "I eat bread" Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Michael Fitch, michaelbfitch@supanet.com Perhaps someone can help with another matter .... It might help me learn Spanish if I understood more about English. They say 'Yo como pan' means 3 things in English: I eat bread, I do eat bread, I am eating bread. I can't think of any use of 'I do eat bread', except as a response to 'You don't eat bread!', or perhaps some sort of dialect usage. Any ideas? ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Susan Roberts, susan.l.roberts@saic.com In answer to your question below: "I'm on a diet, but I do eat bread." ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Eddie Kent, edlineek@aol.com Michael Fitch writes: > 'I do eat bread' But only on special occasions. ------------------------ Date: Thurs, 29 Nov 2001 From: Jo Rudd, jorudd@sia.net.au How about this? A: Of course, you need to eat lots of bread if you want to grow tall. B: But I do eat lots of bread! As far as I recall, the present tense in French and German also has the same three meanings as you say it does in Spanish. e.g . Je parle = I speak, I do speak, I am speaking ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: David Ibbetson, isserlis@rogers.com Yes, the three distinct present tenses in English exist in few, if any, other languages. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Katie Lewis, katie@farnfilm.com Perhaps most important is that very negative: I do not eat bread. Yo no como pan. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Alex Gray, wordworks@gairloch.co.uk A dialect use of the 'do' form that seems particularly localized in Suffolk (UK) is its use as a mild imperative, as in 'Do you have some cake'. Note that this is not a question, but an invitation/request for action, and it would typically be said while offering the cake to a guest. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Katie Lewis, katie@farnfilm.com And there's standard "do sit down", without pronoun - but both are imperatives and would therefore not translate into the present tense in Spanish. Can of worms time. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Michael Fitch, michaelbfitch@supanet.com Thanks, Katie. This seems to back up my original point. The 3 positive statements are: I eat bread I do eat bread I am eating bread Their negatives are: I do not eat bread I do not eat bread I am not eating bread Lo and behold - the first two are identical. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2qm] Capitals Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Eddie Kent, edlineek@aol.com Urgent. I'm working on an author who keeps talking about Carboniferous deposits in the Middle-Lower Yangtze He (rather they - there are four, one has the surname Y which is taking minimalism a bit far) appear to be Chinese; on the whole the work is well written. Some howlers but remarkably few. So. Does Carboniferous really take a capital C? What is meant by Middle-Lower Yangtze? Is it the middle of the lower part, taking a hyphen, or is it middle to lower with thus an en-rule? Also, are the M, L caps? As you can guess I am completely out of my depth on this one. Geography was never my strong point and I'm only doing this because it will be published by the Institute of Mathematics. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Susan Roberts, susan.l.roberts@saic.com Are you really working ON an author? ;-p The first thing to do with a question regarding the author's intent, is to ask for clarification until you know what is trying to be communicated. Carboniferous is a geological term that means there is a lot of carbon in the area. Secondly, I am not familiar with the Yangtze river, so I had to familiarize myself with it. According to a VERY brief review of a couple of websites (yes, I DO mean ONLY two), there may be something called Three Gorges that occupy a portion of the river. As an editor in the environmental field, this is how I would edit the material (based on what you have provided): The carboniferous deposits in the middle-lower Yangtze indicate blah blah blah. What is the feedback from the rest of yall? ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Lane P. Lester, llester@simpub.com I'm a biologist, and my opinion is that everything takes caps. The Carboniferous and the Middle-Lower Yangtze refer to geological deposits and are proper nouns. Also, a hyphen is appropriate, because it refers to a single deposit in the middle of the lower part. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Simon Cauchi, cauchi@wave.co.nz > So. Does Carboniferous really take a capital C? If it refers to deposits of the Carboniferous period, yes. See CMS 14th edn, para 7.111 (but no doubt there is a better authority for geological terms). > What is meant by Middle-Lower Yangtze? Is it the middle of the > lower part, taking a hyphen, or is it middle to lower with thus > an en-rule? Also, are the M, L caps? Who can tell, except the authors? By far the likeliest meaning, I think, is "middle to lower"; "middle of the lower" strikes me as much too subtle an interpretation. But I'm just guessing. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Gregg N. Berry, Gregg.Berry@affa.gov.au I suspect the authors might be referring to deposits laid down during the 'Carboniferous Period', the name of a geological period (when lots of carbon deposits were laid down). Rocks laid down during the period are commonly referred to as 'Carboniferous rocks'. If, however, they are referring to deposits that just happen to contain lots of carbon, then they should be referred to as 'carboniferous deposits' or even 'deposits containing high levels of carbon'. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Cathy Nicoll, cathy.nicoll@atrax.net.au carbon-rich was once the accepted term for deposists with lots of carbon ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Michael Lewis, mlewis@brandle.com.au "Carboniferous" is also the name of a geological era; convention is that era names be capitalised. So perhaps you should check whether your authors are referring to "deposits dating from the Carboniferous era" or "deposits that happen to be full of carbon". (The Carboniferous era was, not surprisingly, when most of the world's coal was "deposited" -- except that it wasn't coal then... The capping and hyphenation (or otherwise) of "Middle-Lower Yangtze" is also, as you quite rightly indicate, a matter of what they mean and a matter of what conventions apply. In their FAQ, the creators of the Chicago Style Manual decree different capping conventions for "the North-East" (meaning, more or less, the New England states of the US) and "the north-east of the state". The first is seen as a proper noun. Are there such rivers (or stretches of river) as the Middle Yangtze and the Lower Yangtze? I dunno... but someone should. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Geoff Palmer, gdp@lineone.net Yes, "Carboniferous" does take a capital C. "Middle-Lower Yangtze" takes an "en" dash, and the capitals probably remain on all words. This gets a bit complicated, and only a geologist would be able to guide you. Even then, different geologists may have different views, because some of these labels are viewed as "formal" whereas others are "informal". The Yangtze is a river, and that river or some location in its valley has become associated with a site of some bit of geological exploration. That exploration has led to the geology of the site being regarded as defining a particular geological "formation", I think, which is why the river name has come to be used. That formation in itself has a structure, and that structure represents different time periods when rocks were formed/laid down (depending on the process). Hence, I guess, "Lower Yangtze" is older than "Middle Yangtze", and there'll be an "Upper Yangtze" which is youngest of all. No, this isn't all guesswork, but if anyone can explain it more accurately, they're welcome to try. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Miranda Barker, wordwiseed@aol.com Carboniferous can be a geological term, so capitalised I think. Otherwise presumably adjectival, like volcanic deposits or similar. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Mark Hendy, markhendy1@compuserve.com I'm an archaeologist. Go with Lane. That's 100% definite, 24/365! ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Eddie Kent, edlineek@aol.com Thanks, everbode. This work is about 'ore fluid transport in fractured rocks'. It appears to be a mathematical model showing where to look for copper (called Cu throughout). If the author had been consistent I would have left well alone. The equations are fine, but most of the text is pure gibberish. Skarn copper deposit, transport-chemical reaction, metallogenesis, the advective flux of a solute, and so on. My present thinking is middle-lower, with a hyphen, because sometimes it is 'middle-lower reaches' and anyway who will notice and if they do there is always search-and-replace nowadays, and Carboniferous, at least partly because he also has Permian. Whew! ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Karin Fancett, karin@fancett.co.uk As someone who trained as a geologist and has edited quite a few geological books and journal papers, I would suggest leaving the capitalisation as it is, but using an N-rule between Middle and Lower. Without the context it is difficult to be definite, but Carboniferous (the period of geological time) seems rather more likely than carboniferous (carbon-bearing). Middle and Lower probably refer to the parts of the river, which could be used capitalised if they are regarded as 'proper names'. I did wonder whether Middle to Lower Yangtze might refer to a rock formation (as suggested by some of the replies) but have not found any mention of this in a quick look at a few reference books. Also, if this was the case, I think a geologist would tend to refer to Lower to Middle (ie oldest rocks first). Capitalisation of Lower/Middle/Upper (divisions of the rocks themselves) and also Early/Middle/Late (divisions of geological ages) strictly speaking depends on whether it is a formally defined geological name, so it's safest to ask the author if there is time, but as I say above, I suspect it is the middle and lower river that is meant here. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Eddie Kent, edlineek@aol.com Karin Fancett writes: > I would suggest leaving the capitalisation as it is This came after my reply. I now wonder if what I saw as inconsistency was only the author talking about different things. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Mary Sheridan, msheridan@bellows.u-net.com Geologists split the Carboniferous into two divisions, the early (also known as the Mississippian) and the late (aka the Pennsylvanian) Carboniferous. These divisions are then further divided, often the names of these subdivisions are taken from the place where a particular or distinguishing characteristic of the rock-type was seen, it is therefore possible that your authors are discussing deposits laid down in the Middle-Lower Yangtze period of the Carboniferous, (which, I think, would suggest that the rocks belong to the early Carboniferous). I believe that the rocks in the Mississippi's flood plain are about the same age as those in the Yangtze's flood plain. Middle-Lower takes an en-rule. Carboniferous, Middle and Lower all take caps. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Susan Roberts, susan.l.roberts@saic.com I'm an editor and I can assure you that carboniferous and middle-lower, in the way used, should be in lower case. I agree that Carboniferous Period uses capitals. In the context of our current discussion, if the term carboniferous is referring to the time period, then the term Carboniferous Period should be used (unless previously in the text, the authors indicate hereinafter referred to ...). Eddie Kent wrote: > My present thinking is middle-lower, with a hyphen, because > sometimes it is 'middle-lower reaches' and anyway who will > notice and if they do there is always search-and-replace > nowadays, and Carboniferous, at least partly because he also > has Permian. Permian Basin? That would be capitalized, then. Look at the first reference to Carboniferous, then you can determine whether it is a location or not. I'm still an editor, so I can only give my opinion. It is up the author whether they take my good advice or not! ;-p ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Anna Beth McCormack, mccormack@goulburn.net.au In the recent discussion about capitals on Carboniferous and Middle-Lower Yangtze, no one has mentioned the Code of Stratigraphic Nomenclature. This code (variously titled in different countries) is the set of rules that determine geological naming for segments of time and rock units. Formal names under the code must have caps. If the Carboniferous Period of time is meant, cap C, cap P are needed, but one could also use 'the Carboniferous' as shorthand, and talk about (e.g.) 'Carboniferous rocks' for rocks belonging to the Carboniferous Period. On the other hand, if carbon-bearing is meant, lc c is needed, as 'carboniferous' here is just descriptive. You'd need caps for a stratigraphic unit called (e.g.) the Middle--Lower Yangtze Series, but one could also talk about (e.g.) 'Middle--Lower Yangzte shales' for shales in that series of rocks. You'd also need caps for a segment of time called (e.g.) the Middle--Lower Yangzte Subperiod, but one could also use 'the Middle--Lower Yangzte' as shorthand and talk about (e.g.) 'Middle--Lower Yangzte rocks'. In both cases, an en-rule would be needed, as the meaning would be 'middle to lower', not 'middle of the lower'. (Such names seem unlikely, however, as the preferred word order would probably be 'Lower--Middle'.) On the other hand, if the name of the stratigraphic unit or segment of time were just 'Lower Yangzte Series/Subperiod' and the middle part of it were meant, then 'middle Lower Yangzte' would be correct as 'middle' would be just descriptive. However, if you guessed (correctly) from use of the term 'reaches' in Eddie's text, plus the word order in 'Middle--Lower', that 'Middle' and 'Lower' describe stretches of the Yangzte River and don't refer to anything geological, then you might well prefer to use lc m and lc l---unless, of course, Middle Yangtze and Lower Yangtze (with caps) are established geographical districts, not just parts of the river. Similar considerations apply to formally named structural units (e.g. Sydney Basin but Permian basin) and events (e.g. Bowen Orogeny). Care is needed when dealing with plurals of geological names. For example, you would say: -- 'the Carboniferous and Permian Periods were' but 'the periods before the Mesozoic were'; -- 'the Thisplace and Thatplace Formations are' but 'the formations in the Someplace Series are'. Further care is needed when dealing with the trio 'lower', 'middle' and 'upper', because in some continental areas (e.g.) Lower Carboniferous (with caps) is a recognised name, whereas in others it is not. Similarly, (e.g.) both the Lower Wheresit Formation and the Upper Wheresit Formation (with caps) may be recognised names of stratigraphic units in a certain area. However, applied to time segments, the trio 'early', 'middle' and 'late' are most probably descriptive (with lc). When working with geological names it is a good idea to know (or find out) what is meant before making any decisions about capitals. Scientific style and format: the CBE manual for authors, editors, and publishers, put out by Cambridge University Press, contains a listing of geological time segments (among which there is no 'Yangzte' anything). The author is probably the best person to ask if you suspect the name of a stratigraphic unit is meant but aren't sure. --------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 From: Eddie Kent, edlineek@aol.com Thanks to everyone who replied on this. The job is now done and gone. It was extremely urgent and had been worked on by at least three people before me.The authors used a Laplace transform with inversion and a bit of fiddling around to trace where copper had leaked through rock fractures over 10000 years. I was asked to look at the mathematics and anything else that jumped out. If there hadn't been inconsistencies I probably wouldn't have bothered. Definitely not my field. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2qn] "Affected from" or "affected by"? Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Susan Roberts, susan.l.roberts@saic.com What is the opinion on whether to use "affected" or "effected" and "from" or "by" in the following: "A visual inspection of containers will be performed to ensure that container integrity is not significantly the increased temperature". ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Esther Bisset, Esther_Bisset@mancat.ac.uk I'd go with 'affected' and 'by'. 'To effect' is 'to bring about' or 'to accomplish'; 'to affect' is 'to produce an effect on', 'to attack, move, touch' (see 'Usage and Abusage', Eric Partridge). ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: John Crane, jc@john-crane.com When used as a verb, "affected" means influenced and "effected" means created. The correct usage in the example is "affected." Something can't be influenced (affected) _from_ something else, it can only be influenced (affected) _by_ that something else. --------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 From: Anne Greiner, agreiner@pcug.org.au That would be 'affected by', (in Australia at least :-). 'effect' means to bring about or accomplish, whereas 'affect' means to touch, move, produce an effect on. (courtesy OED) i.e. The temperature was _affected_ by turning on the air-conditioning. A temperature change was _effected_ by turning on the air-conditioning. --- Thanks also to David Ibbetson, Eddie Kent, Mary Ellen Osowski, Alison Terry and Iwan Thomas for their contributions. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2qo] Plural or singular subject? Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: John Morris, johnjeff@meadowdance.org Would you say that the subject in the following sentence is plural or singular? Written provider communication associated with weight loss, renal dialysis care and prenatal care were examined. The plural verb feels wrong to me here because we are talking about "provider communication." However, perhaps the fact that we are talking about communication in three different instances, "weight loss, renal dialysis care and prenatal care," makes the verb plural. Any thoughts would be appreciated. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Carol Schanche, cschanche@ncte.org Your subject is "communication," is being treated as a collective noun, and is, therefore, singular. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Sally Nicholls, sallynicholls@ga.prestige.net Your instinct is correct. It should be a singular verb to agree with written communication. If it made you more comfortable, you could put commas after communication and prenatal care. (Or leave were and add an s to communication?) ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Susan Roberts, susan.l.roberts@saic.com > Written provider communication associated with weight loss, > renal dialysis care and prenatal care were examined. was I have another one for the singular vs. plural debate: "This knowledge, leadership, and authority allow the Manager to function quickly and effectively when responding to an emergency incident" My coworkers say it should read "allows", I think allow. What is the consensus? ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Carol Schanche, cschanche@ncte.org I vote for "allow." These are three separate entities that ALLOW a result. The case for making them one entity is very weak, in my opinion. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: David Ibbetson, isserlis@rogers.com Susan Roberts wrote: > "This knowledge, leadership, and authority allow the Manager to > function quickly and effectively when responding to an > emergency incident" > > My coworkers say it should read "allows", I think allow. What > is the consensus? Is "knowledge, leadership, and authority" three things or one? If three things "these...allow" If one "this...allows" I'd like to recast: These three things: knowledge, ... allow" ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Sally Lansdell, sally@lansdell.com I would say allow - it's covering knowledge, leadership and authority, which are three things. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: John Crane, jc@john-crane.com This... allows.... I agree with David that it would be better rewritten as "These three things, knowledge, leadership, and authority, allow....' Or simply "These three things allow..." if "things" has been defined in the previous sentence or so. Of course, you might want to use something more fancy than "things," such as "characteristics" or "functions." I'm not going to ask why "Manager" is capitalized. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Susan Roberts, susan.l.roberts@saic.com LOL -- you're the only one to point out manager vs Manager. My typo when I replaced the original description. --------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 From: Michael Lewis, mlewis@brandle.com.au Just to throw a spanner in the works: I found the whole sentence extraordinarily opaque -- I had to read it three times before I could understand the question. It seems to me that this is only secondarily a question of grammar; it's primarily a question of clarity. I would offer something along these lines: We (or the study, or the researchers) examined written communication from providers, in relation to weight loss, renal dialysis care, and prenatal care. --------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 From: Susan Roberts, susan.l.roberts@saic.com I know it was a cryptic sentence; however, in the real context it does work. --------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 From: Alison Turnbull, ali@fit-to-print.co.uk I agree with Michael Lewis that clarity comes before the finer points of grammar. Michael got this sentence > Written provider communication associated with weight loss, > renal dialysis care and prenatal care were examined. down to > We (or the study, or the researchers) examined written > communication from providers, in relation to weight loss, renal > dialysis care, and prenatal care. and I took it even further to We read what providers had written about * weight loss * renal dialysis care * prenatal care The sentence in the effect/affect debate presented the same problem - a grammar niggle masking a foggy sentence. I turned A visual inspection of containers will be performed to ensure that container integrity is not significantly affected by the increased temperature. into We will inspect the cans (or bottles or whatever) to make sure they stand up to higher temperature. I ring alarm bells with words like 'performed' 'undertaken' and 'carried out' - they are usually just another way of saying 'done' 'done' is also redundant because you can use the verb hiding in 'inspection' +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [2qp] George Harrison and plagiarism Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2001 From: Geoffrey D. Palmer, gdp@lineone.net I've been reading in another place (CE-L) various reminiscences about the "My Sweet Lord"/"She's So Fine" controversy. I suppose it was inevitable that any retrospective about George Harrison would swiftly move into this territory. There's a long history of plagiarism, not just in pop music but in all of the arts and throughout literature. Not only that, but there are just a lucky few people who come up with original ideas, while there are always a great many more who recycle them. The same is true in science, and probably in the social sciences/humanities. For example, I think I'm right in saying that anyone who publishes a pretty little map of the break-up of Pangaea owes a debt of gratitude -- if not an actual copyright fee -- to Scientific American, who published the original in the early 1970s. So, what of George? Did he really lift the tune from the Chiffons? Did he also borrow "Something in the way she moves" from James Taylor? And does it matter? If you live in a world in which you try to build defences and protect yourself from others, whether through the use of bricks and mortar or litigation, then you'll have a hard time getting through life's experiences. On the other hand, if you allow people to share, and if in return you borrow, then perhaps everyone wins. For example, if some of those who were curious about "My Sweet Lord"/"He's So Fine" actually went out and bought the Chiffons single, then perhaps everyone gained. Borrowing without sharing, however, is a different matter! I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on plagiarism in general, and perhaps on the knock-on effects -- such as the vast expansion in the body of literature that becomes possible. My hypothesis is that it's a subtle kind of plagiarism that keeps us all in work. Or is there nothing new to say about plagiarism? --------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 From: Eddie Kent, edlineek@aol.com If you ever get the chance, listen to 'Lament for the decline of chivalry', by Riccio. If it wasn't medieval you'd sware it was a direct rip-off of 'Norwegion Wood'. I think Mozart must have written Sym 41 after a pretty intense bout of watching Hollywood Westerns, but he did it so much better. My own experience -- twice in the last few months I have written jokes and placed them on the internet, to hear them sent in and read out on BBC Radio 4 within a couple of weeks. It would be less galling if (a) they hadn't wrecked them with addition detail, and (b) they had mentioned my name. Ah well! --------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 From: Susan Roberts, susan.l.roberts@saic.com Plagiarism is a vital part of regulatory compliance. Basically, we say the same thing with minor variations. I've also worked in bids & proposals and plagiarism occurs there, also. I consider this part of the "business" world. I is, however, very sad to read about the level of plagiarism happening in the academic world. We've all probably read stories regarding the concern of plagiarism at universities, and the proportional increase of plagiarism and availability of computers. I for one wonder if this is a result of a decrease in personal moral standards. I can honestly say that I've not felt desperate enough to plagiarize, but I'm blessed with a large self-confidence that is ignorant enough to believe what I have to say is worthy of sharing. --------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 From: John Crane, jc@john-crane.com Susan Roberts wrote: > Plagiarism is a vital part of regulatory compliance. Basically, > we say the same thing with minor variations. I've also worked > in bids & proposals and plagiarism occurs there, also. If it's material your company or government department created in the first place, reusing it is not plagiarism -- it's efficiency. --------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 From: Marianne Youdale, MYoudale@aol.com I always enjoy Geoff's messages which raise fascinating points. Plagiarism. It's obviously a fine line in who decides it. Was Harry Potter a gift from God, an inspiration, or was it a remix. We all know about the bad remixes which are just embarrassing so there is a distinction somewhere along the line. Sharing and learning from influences has to be the option in making one's own choice. This relates very much to editing in that choice of the pen being mightier than the sword. --------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 From: Geoffrey D. Palmer, gdp@lineone.net In the case of Harry Potter, there are certainly plenty of stereotypical characters. To what extent is Dumbledore also Gandalf? But, then, to what extent is Gandalf also Merlin? And to what extent is Middle Earth also Middangeard -- the Old English term for this world, as the place between heaven and hell, and actually listed as meaning "middle earth" in Bruce Mitchell and Fred C. Robinson's "A Guide to Old English" (5th edn, Blackwell, 1992)? There's a certain amount of cultural reinforcement and reassurance in stereotyping -- even though we all claim to crave something new. The new is so often fashioned upon the foundation of the old. ---[3] FYI ----------------------------------------------------- ** [3gt] Call for Papers: "Journal of Media Economics" Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 From: Al Greco, angreco@aol.com [Cross-posted from SHARP-L] The "Journal of Media Economics" (JME) will publish a special issue in 2003 on "The Transformation of the Publishing Industry." JME invites papers on: (1) the book publishing industry; (2) the magazine publishing industry; (3) the scholarly journal publishing industry; and (4) the electronic distribution of book, magazine, or journal content. JME is a peer reviewed journal published by Lawrence Erlbaum Associates. Submission requirements: (1) mail four copies of the paper, double-spaced on 8 1/2" x 11" paper, by July 1, 2002; (2) use APA style manual; (3) 75 word abstract on separate page; (4) only the article title should appear on the first page; an attached cover page must contain the title, authors' affiliation, mailing address, phone, FAX, and e-mail numbers of all authors; (5) authors must use nonsexist language; (6) only articles written in English will be considered. Submission and information: Albert N. Greco, Guest Editor Fordham University Graduate School of Business Administration 113 West 60th Street New York, NY 10023 angreco@aol.com Tel: (+1) 201-439-1839 Fax: (+1) 201-384-7585 ---[4] Business matters ---------------------------------------- ** [4fi] Numbers of freelance editors and proofreaders? Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Julie O'Shea, julieos@edco.ie I'm trying to estimate the number of freelance editors / proofreaders currently working in the UK - any idea of where I might get up-to-date figures? --------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 From: Iain Brown, iain.brown@ucl.ac.uk And for that matter, the number of freelancers in each major publishing countries worldwide? +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [4fj] E-Learning Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Esther Bisset, Esther_Bisset@mancat.ac.uk I work in a department which produces a wide range of paper-based open/distance learning materials. We are now finally branching out, somewhat belatedly, into the production of online learning materials. Can anyone recommend any e-learning training/software which would be appropriate for this from an editorial point of view? +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ** [4fk] Copy editor for Website, BMJ Unified Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Miriam Pinchuk, mpinchuk@bmj.com We're looking for a UK-based part-time (2 days/week) copy editor for a health care Web site. We need someone who has experience editing medical text, can edit American English, and can spot lingering Britishisms and replace them with suitable Americanisms. The top candidate will also know how to tag copy for the Web and have experience working on a publishing tool. You'll get extra points if you're familiar with AP style. Our recently launched Web site provides health information to both consumers and doctors, so you must be comfortable with medical terminology and with translating it for consumers (when necessary). We have constant deadlines: we've got five topics up on our pilot site and are aiming to add another five by February. Can you help us? Please send a cover letter and re/sume/ to Claire Ellison at cellison@bmjgroup.com, by Fri, 14 December 2001. ---[5] Bookmarks ---------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Jane Dorner, jane@editor.net Cross-posted from < http://www.internetwriter.co.uk > Ask Oxford Various bits from the language dictionaries plus changing word news: < http://www.askoxford.com/ > Bloomsbury Magazine Writers' area; advice and resources for authors: < http://www.bloomsburymagazine.com/writersarea/ > Netlingo Words and definitions explaining web and email-based terms: < http://www.netlingo.com > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Quick - before they find out! Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Ian Kingston, i.kingston@ntlworld.com Visit < http://www.lineone.net/dictionaryof/englishusage/ > and take a look at the text in the title bar of your browser. Kind of spoils the intended effect... ---------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 From: Moira Vekony, Moira7777@aol.com That is just so funny! Hope no one on the list is going to trust their queries to them....I wont be using it for one, I can make that kind of mistake all by myself!!! ---[8] Administration ------------------------------------------ EDline is a discussion list about editorial and business matters for members of the publishing community. It focuses on issues of interest to professional editors, proofreaders, typesetters, writers and those in associated jobs. To post to the mailing list via Topica, use the following address: EDline@topica.com For digest subscribers, please post your EDline messages to: bywater@ntlworld.com * Accented characters: When writing accented characters, please adopt the following convention to show the accent after the character: / acute \ grave ^ circumflex ~ tilde " umlaut/diaeresis , cedilla % o slash aa a ring sz German double s | long s _ line above letter * Homepage and back issues: Visit the Electric Editors at: < http://www.electriceditors.net/ > Archives of the EDline automated discussions can be found at: < http://www.topica.com/lists/EDline > All messages contributed to EDline, whether automated or digest versions, are archived on the Electric Editors' Website. These archives can be found at: < http://www.electriceditors.net/EDline/ > --------- ** The views expressed in this mailing list are strictly those of the individual contributors, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the moderators or of the Electric Editors. ** Articles (c) 2001, by individual contributors Design (c) 1996, 1997, 2000 Iain Brown Compilation (c) 2001, Iain Brown / The Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= END OF EDline 6.48 Next digest issue: 9 December 2001 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=