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  EDline Vol. 7, no. 16     (21 January 2002)

  Editorial mailing list (digest version)
  Published by the Electric Editors
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  Contents:

         Q & A
  [2rl]  -ise / -ize
            [Offshoot of [2rk] Conventions for scare quotes]

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---[2]-- Q & A --------------------------------------------------


** [2rl] -ise / -ize
            [Offshoot of [2rk] Conventions for scare quotes]

         Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002
         From: Alex Gray, wordworks@gairloch.co.uk

Michael Fitch wrote:

> More recently I found it used by a retired Oxford academic in
> his book on the philosophy of mathematics, in which he was very
> insistent on his style being retained. (I seem to remember he
> wanted to decide between -ise and -ize spellings according to
> the Latin or Greek origin of each individual word.)

That's perfectly reasonable and normal Oxford English (you won't,
for example, find organise or realise in the OED, except perhaps
in a large edition as a deprecated variant, and equally you will
not find advertise or analyse). I have always wondered where the
myth grew up among our (British) school teachers that the -ize
ending is an American habit, as many of them seem to believe;
maybe it's because of the -yse words that in the US are -yze
(such as analyze, which is always wrong in British usage.)

As far as I recall, more knowledgable people than me say that the
-ise ending arose as an affectation in British English following
the high society fashion of aping the French, who use the -iser
form exclusively.

It is the practice in British (and US) English to use the -ize
ending where an existing English word is being modified to
indicate the process of changing something to resemble the root
adjective in some way (such as Americanize). I have always
presumed that the reasoning here is that the etymological root of
this method is Greek (and the Greeks use Zeta not Sigma in their
equivalent ending), and since the method is being applied
irrespective of the language of the original word, the
Greek-derived spelling is used.


         ----------------------
         Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002
         From: David Ibbetson, isserlis@rogers.com

My recollection is that schools in England teach/taught -ise.
When I started thinking about such things I noticed that OUP and
several other publishers have -ize as their house style.


         ----------------------
         Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002
         From: Damaris Wilson, Wilsondidi@aol.com

My recollection from schooldays in England is that -ize is more
usual; also, that the -ise form arose with those words derived
from French, when such usage (17th or 18th century) was
'aristocratic'. Note quotes. 


         ----------------------
         Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002
         From: Ian Kingston, i.kingston@ntlworld.com

Alex Gray wrote:

> That's perfectly reasonable and normal Oxford English (you
> won't, for example, find organise or realise in the OED, except
> perhaps in a large edition as a deprecated variant, and equally
> you will not find advertise or analyse).

'Advertise' and 'analyse' are in fact the preferred spellings in
the OED.

> I have always presumed that the reasoning here is that the
> etymological root of this method is Greek (and the Greeks use
> Zeta not Sigma in their equivalent ending), and since the
> method is being applied irrespective of the language of the
> original word, the Greek-derived spelling is used.

I think this is pretty close to the truth. In my time at OUP, I
was taught that when Murray was compiling the first edition of
the OED he decided to follow etymological root for 'ise/ize'
endings, rather than applying a blanket rule. Unfortunately, he
died long before the work was completed, and subsequent editors
were either ignorant of the rule or less diligent in their work;
perhaps they sometimes preferred to follow majority usage. The
result was an inconsistent mess.

The tale additionally went that Webster, in the USA, opted for
'ize' in all cases (with a few exceptions). This may be the
origin of the '"ize" is American, "ise" is British' belief.

I should stress that I have never seen an authoritative source
for these assertions, but they seem plausible and I'm inclined to
believe them.


         ----------------------
         Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002
         From: Eddie Kent, edlineek@aol.com

Alex Gray writes: 

> I have always presumed that the reasoning here is that the 
> etymological root of this method is Greek 

The Greek ending is -izo, the form used to complete nouns.
However, if the stem contains -is- (-vis- seeing; -cis- cutting;
-mis- putting; giving televise, circumcise, compromise, for
instance) then the -ise form is used. Note also, do not change a
noun such as exercise, surprise. 

I put a complete list of all the -ise words I know in EdLine once
upon a time. *

---
[* Note: Eddie's list is to be found in EDline 4.12 (28 March
1999), thread [2gv] International English. --IDB]


         ----------------------
         Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002
         From: Kathleen Lyle, edserve@klyle.demon.co.uk

There is a list in Hart's Rules, too, and an explanation of the
convention.

A lot of my regular clients use the 'UK z spellings' style, so I
think of it as quite normal. Having worked in house for OUP when
I was young and impressionable probably helps too.


         ----------------------
         Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002
         From: Alex Gray, wordworks@gairloch.co.uk

I wrote:

> That's perfectly reasonable and normal Oxford English (you
> won't, for example, find organise or realise in the OED, except
> perhaps in a large edition as a deprecated variant, and equally
> you will not find advertise or analyse).

Oops - of course I meant to say "equally you will not find
advertize or analyze)."

So eazily done!

David Ibbetson wrote:

> My recollection is that schools in England teach/taught -ise.
> When I started thinking about such things I noticed that OUP
> and several other publishers have -ize as their house style.

Yes, but why did they start teaching -ise? Almost all their
dictionaries showed -ize (most teachers/schools used the OED as
the definitive dictionary, after all). One or two British
dictionaries show -ise as an alternative, none that I have found
shows it as the only spelling, whereas many show -ize as the only
spelling.


         ----------------------
         Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002
         From: Kathleen Lyle, edserve@klyle.demon.co.uk

Alex Gray writes

> Yes, but why did they start teaching -ise?

The Complete Plain Words by Sir Ernest Gowers, first published in
the late 1940s, was based on style guides intended for the Civil
Service. Gowers comments on the OED/Fowler z spellings and then
quotes another authority that I'm not familiar with (also
published by OUP, interestingly):

  'the authors of The A.B.C. of English Usage ... say roundly,
  "the advice given here is to end them all in -ise", a verdict
  with which I respectfully agree.'

So the -ise spellings were adopted throughout the Civil Service,
including the Ministry of Education (as it then was) and thus
presumably to schools.


         ----------------------
         Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002
         From: Damaris Wilson, Wilsondidi@aol.com

ABC of English Usage - Treble & Vallins? 

I left Grammar School (and England) in 1962, and recall quite
clearly that there was then no 'general' rule, at least at out
school; one was expected to learn, and apply, individual endings
correctly (according to the OED)! 


         ----------------------
         Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002
         From: David Ibbetson, isserlis@rogers.com

Kathleen Lyle wrote:

> The Complete Plain Words by Sir Ernest Gowers, first published
> in the late 1940s, was based on style guides intended for the
> Civil Service. ... So the -ise spellings were adopted throughout
> the Civil Service, including the Ministry of Education (as it
> then was) and thus presumably to schools.

The schools were already teaching -ise. All Gowers was saying was
"No change needed here". I suspect that -ise had been in use for
generations and that Gowers and others were resisting the -ize
movement.


         ----------------------
         Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002
         From: Michael Fitch, michaelbfitch@supanet.com

I really didn't mean to start this thread. Most of my clients
also prefer UK -ize spellings, though nowadays they tend to say
'follow the author's style', and mostly that means using -ise
spellings, following the dictates of Microsoft.

My original comment (and it was only an aside) referred to an
Oxford university (not OUP) author. I think his intention was to
consider the source of each individual word. Thus: 'realize'
comes from a Latin source, and for this reason it must be spelt
with an 's', not a (Greek) 'z'.


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