=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= EDline Vol. 7, no. 215 (10 September 2002) Editorial mailing list (digest version) Published by the Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Contents: Q & A [2wb] Ecclesiasticus =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ---[2]-- Q & A -------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Sept 2002 From: Jane Kerr, bywater@ntlworld.com Can anyone point me to a definitive online source for the Ecclesiasticus (part of the Apocrypha in the King James Bible, according to my author)? I'm particularly interested in Chapter 44, verse 1 ("Let us now sing the praises of famous men..."), and the words that Rudyard Kipling chose for the Stone of Remembrance in the war cemeteries for those killed in WWI. ---------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Sept 2002 From: Philip Gardner, philip.gardner@asgard.zetnet.co.uk Ecclesiasticus (no 'the') is indeed part of the Apocrypha - not just in the King James Bible (usually called the Authorized Version in the UK), but in any translation of the Bible that includes the Apocrypha. Most translations do, but some Protestant versions omit the Apocryphal books. Ecclesiasticus is now more commonly known as Sirach. Its full title in the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible is: "Ecclesiasticus or the Wisdom of Jesus son of Sirach" [Sirach is in larger type for emphasis in my copy.] A good online source for Sirach is: < http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/RsvSira.html > That's the Revised Standard Version (RSV), but they also have the King James Version (KJV/AV), and you can even display both side-by-side for comparison. This e-text library also contains the other Apocryphal books, and indeed many other texts. ---------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Sept 2002 From: Simon Cauchi, simon.cauchi@paradise.net.nz I have a copy of the Oxford World's Classics edition of the King James Version, which includes the Apocrypha. The text of Ecclesiasticus 44:1 reads: "Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us." But you should read the entire passage, at least up to v. 15 (reproduced below) and if you have time read on to the end of chapter 50. 1 Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us. 2 The Lord hath wrought great glory by them through his great power from the beginning. 3 Such as did bear rule in their kingdoms, men renowned for their power, giving counsel by their understanding, and declaring prophecies: 4 Leaders of the people by their counsels, and by their knowledge of learning meet for the people, wise and eloquent in their instructions: 5 Such as found out musical tunes, and recited verses in writing: 6 Rich men furnished with ability, living peaceably in their habitations; 7 All these were honoured in their generations, and were the glory of their times. 8 There be of them, that have left a name behind them, that their praises might be reported. 9 And some there be, which have no memorial; who are perished, as though they had never been; and are become as though they had never been born, and their children after them. 10 But these were merciful men, whose righteousness hath not been forgotten. 11 With their seed shall continually remain a good inheritance, and their children are within the covenant. 12 Their seed standeth fast, and their children for their sakes. 13 Their seed shall remain for ever, and their glory shall not be blotted out. 14 Their bodies are buried in peace; but their name liveth for evermore. 15 The people will tell of their wisdom, and the congregation will show forth their praise. (Found online at < http://www.episcopalnet.org/1928bcp/readings/FixedNov.html >) ---------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Sept 2002 From: David Ibbetson, isserlis@rogers.com The KJ version of the line is "Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us". This would be the translation familiar to Most Brits at that time. Kipling also uses the line as the theme of _A School Song_ in which he thanks his schoolmasters collectively. As to sources. The following is from _The Oxford Study Bible_, which uses the translation in the _Revised English Bible_ Written in Hebrew, the original text was lost in the early centuries C.E. About two-thirds of the book in Hebrew was rediscovered in Cairo around 1896. Since then other partial Hebrew manuscripts have been found, among them short fragments in the Judean desert at Qumran and Masada; These discoveries seem to indicate that the Hebrew text of Cairo, though not identical with the original, does derive from the original text, not from a retranslation from the Greek, as was once supposed. ---------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Sept 2002 From: Jane Kerr, bywater@ntlworld.com Thanks, all, for the information on Ecclesiasticus. My author has quoted the line "Their name liveth for ever-more", as the inscription upon the Stones of Remembrance in the war cemeteries, which is the same as in the version quoted by Simon Cauchi (except that it's picked up a hyphen), but he has also quoted a version of Ecclesiasticus 44:1-14, which gives the relevant line as (the much less elegant) "their name lives on generation after generation". =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= END OF EDline 7.215 Admin page: < http://www.electriceditors.net/edline/admin.htm > ** The views expressed in this mailing list are strictly those of the individual contributors, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the moderators or of the Electric Editors. ** Articles (c) 2001, 2002, by individual contributors Design (c) 1996--2002 Iain Brown Compilation (c) 2002, Iain Brown / The Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=