=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= EDline Vol. 7, no. 27 (3 February 2002) Editorial mailing list (digest version) Published by the Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Contents: Q & A [2rs] Lay / lie [Offshoot of [2ro] Milleniums] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ---[2]-- Q & A -------------------------------------------------- ** [2rs] Lay / lie [Offshoot of [2ro] Milleniums] Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 From: Susannah Driver-Barstow, sdrvr@ulster.net John Crane wrote: > I daresay that 95 percent of people (Americans, anyway) say > "lay" for "lie," as in "I'm going to lay down and rest." No > doubt that's going to result in "lay" soon being an acceptable > alternative in dictionaries. I fully sympathize with your preference for keeping "lie" for "lie down," American though I am. Like you, I very rarely hear our compatriots use the--to us--correct form, though, and I expect you're right that "lay" will edge it out in dictionaries before too long. As for this being a change due to widespread ignorance, or lack of logic, I'm not so sure (though I'm quite sure I'm right in my own choice and would absolutely correct the other in any writing I edit--until the dictionaries tell me to do otherwise). If so many people find the distinction between lie and lay confusing, perhaps it isn't so logical after all. ---------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 From: Michael Lewis, mlewis@brandle.com.au I think it's decidedly illogical. I haven't looked at the etymology, and I don't want to get involved in other meanings or other word classes, but as verbs these seem to differ in just one simple way: lie is intransitive, lay transitive. Offhand, I can't think of any other such case. In my childhood I learned a little rhyme that began "Now I lay me down to sleep..." Aside from the use of "me" rather than the reflexive "myself", this usage seems most unusual. Is there a semantic difference (albeit a subtle one) between "I'm going to lie down" and "I'm going to lay myself down"? Perhaps -- but when would we use the latter? ---------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 From: John Crane, jcrane8@bellsouth.net Michael Lewis wrote: >...as verbs (lie and lay) seem to differ in just one simple way: > lie is intransitive, lay transitive. There's a lot bigger difference that that. The words have completely different meanings: "lie" means to recline, "lay" means to place something somewhere. I lie down to rest after I lay the book on the table. > In my childhood I learned a little rhyme that began "Now I lay > me down to sleep..." Aside from the use of "me" rather than the > reflexive "myself", this usage seems most unusual. Unusual, perhaps, but correct. I am placing something (me, i.e., my body) on the bed. > Is there a semantic difference (albeit a subtle one) between > "I'm going to lie down" and "I'm going to lay myself down"? > Perhaps -- but when would we use the latter? When placing something somewhere. I don't even see much of an excuse for our confusing the two words as long as we stick to the present tense. Where the confusion seems to originate is when we find that the past tense of "lie" is "lay" and that of "lay" is "laid." ---------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 From: David Ibbetson, isserlis@rogers.com Michael Lewis wrote: > In my childhood I learned a little rhyme that began "Now I lay > me down to sleep..." It was first printed in the New England Primer in 1781. Presumably it was good English when it was written and still good English in 1781, though the construction might already have been dated. Now I lay me down to sleep; I pray the Lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I wake, I pray toe Lord my soul to take. ----------------------- Date: Tues, 22 Jan 2002 From: Nick Round-Turner, wordwork@xtra.co.nz I recall a variation on this taught me by my (Catholic) mother-in-law. I subsequently passed it on to my children as a bed-time prayer. It appears to have been softened or sanitised in case young minds would be disturbed by the possibility of dying in their sleep: Now I lay me down to sleep; I pray thee, Lord, my soul to keep. Guide me safely through the night; Wake me with the morning light. One could use 'lie' in the first line, while preserving the scansion, as follows: Now as I lie down to sleep; ----------------------- Date: Tues, 22 Jan 2002 From: Michael Lewis, mlewis@brandle.com.au John Crane wrote: > ... The words have completely different meanings: "lie" means > to recline, "lay" means to place something somewhere. I lie > down to rest after I lay the book on the table. I don't see those meanings as "completely different". Afterwards, you are lying on the bed; the book is lying on the table. > ... I am placing something (me, i.e., my body) on the bed. That will do me as a definition of "recline"! >> Is there a semantic difference (albeit a subtle one) between >> "I'm going to lie down" and "I'm going to lay myself down"? >> Perhaps -- but when would we use the latter? > > When placing something somewhere. When placing _myself_ somewhere? > I don't even see much of an excuse for our confusing the two > words as long as we stick to the present tense. Where the > confusion seems to originate is when we find that the past > tense of "lie" is "lay" and that of "lay" is "laid." Certainly, this seems a likely explanation. ----------------------- Date: Tues, 22 Jan 2002 From: David King, david@kingdavid.org 'Lie' also means to tell something untrue. Curiouser and curiouser..... ----------------------- Date: Tues, 22 Jan 2002 From: Bess Flores, bflores@bigpond.com There are also the expressions "to get laid" and "to be a good lay". I don't know whether you can 'lay' someone but I seem to remember a 60s-70s pop song that contained the instruction "Lay, lady, lay". Is my memory accurate? And if it is, what was the lady supposed to do? ---------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 From: Iwan Thomas, iwan@frame.org.uk Quite accurate - did she achieve eggstasy? (Ouch) Bob Dylan: Lay lady Lay (from the Nashville Skyline album - 1969) Lay, lady, lay, lay across my big brass bed Lay, lady, lay, lay across my big brass bed Whatever colors you have in your mind I'll show them to you and you'll see them shine etc. ---------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 From: Esther Bisset, esther_bisset@mancat.ac.uk Was she supposed to lay herself down on Bob Dylan's big brass bed? ;-) ---------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 From: Michael Lewis, mlewis@brandle.com.au It was a Bob Dylan number: she was supposed to "Lay, lady, lay / Lay upon my big brass bed", presumably as a prerequisite to getting laid. So this solecistic use of "lay" has been around for a while... ---------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 From: John Crane, jcrane8@bellsouth.net I don't know what Dylan had in mind but literally, of course, the lady was being asked to lay some colors on the bed. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= END OF EDline 7.27 Admin page: < http://www.electriceditors.net/edline/admin.htm > ** The views expressed in this mailing list are strictly those of the individual contributors, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the moderators or of the Electric Editors. ** Articles (c) 2001, 2002, by individual contributors Design (c) 1996--2002 Iain Brown Compilation (c) 2002, Iain Brown / The Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=