=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= EDline Vol. 7, no. 39 (14 February 2002) Editorial mailing list (digest version) Published by the Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Contents: Q & A [2sa] Aitches and assle [Offshoot of [2rv] An European] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ---[2]-- Q & A -------------------------------------------------- ** [2sa] Aitches and assle [Offshoot of [2rv] An European] Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 From: Alison Turnbull, ali@fit-to-print.co.uk Traffic report on local radio yesterday '....accident on the A595 where a Haitch Gee Vee has overturned.....' she definitely said a not an, and clearly pronounced the H. --------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 From: Nancy Boston, boston.editorial@ntlworld.com I think this is regional. My three children (born and brought up in Leicestershire) all say haitch, whereas I (born in Lancashire, brought up in London) say aitch. --------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 From: Ron Fuke, ron.fuke@btinternet.com The verbalisation of the letter "h" as "haitch" is, I agree, a regional variation of the correct "aitch". Living in Coventry (and you do not hear many people admitting to that) the 'born and bred' brigade use the former whereas I, brought up in Hemel Hempstead, have always used the latter pronunciation. --------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 From: Victor Dewsbery, translation@dewsbery.de Let me match your admission with another -- I was born and brought up in Coventry. However, your observation of the Coventry "haitch" does not sound familiar to me and is not my usage -- although that may be partly due to the fact that I have only made short visits since I finished school (decades ago!). How prevalent is the "haitch" among the locals nowadays? A variety of dialects seem to be in use in Coventry, I suspect partly resulting from population interchange with the Birmingham area. I even observed fairly strong differences among my own relatives, although my parents' generation on both sides were all born and brought up in the city. --------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 From: Michael Lewis, mlewis@brandle.com.au There's a widespread theory that "haitch" has been ... ummm ... propagated by "Irish teachers in the global Catholic education system". I don't think this is a real "conspiracy" theory; rather, the idea is that "haitch" is essentially an Irishism, and the widespread participation of Irish teachers in the Catholic education system(s) has, naturally enough, been a vector for the practice. (I hope nobody interprets this in any derogatory sense; I speak -- write, rather -- purely in a spirit of academic detachment!) So: how likely is it that this "local radio" reporter has been educated by Irish Catholics? (To get any kind of handle on that, you'd have to consider the speaker's accent; could you localise it, to Cumbria or elsewhere?) --------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 From: Ruth Barlow, ruth.barlow@btinternet.com I am a Lancastrian who was taught from the age of 5 by many Irish Catholics (nuns, no less), and I have never been encouraged or tempted to pronounce h as haitch. Rather than being the result of regional language or education variations, isn't it more likely that the idiom arises because people simply assume that the word should begin with the letter it represents? --------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 From: Michael Lewis, mlewis@brandle.com.au Thanks. The "theory" I mentioned is (perhaps was -- I've never taken it completely seriously myself) quite widely held amongst linguists in Australia, possibly because the phenomenon exhibits little or no "regional" variation here; there has to be a different kind of explanation. It could be related to regional origins of British forebears, or something. Anyway, your info is the first firm rebuttal that I've seen. I now take the "theory" even less seriously -- thanks again! ---------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 From: Helen Moore, Helen.Moore@pearsoned.com.au I was schooled in an Anglican church environment, and brought up to say 'aitch', in Tasmania. My children, who spent their early years at school, in the western district of Victoria were taught to say 'haitch' by their Roman Catholic school teacher (in a non-catholic school). Now that they're in Melbourne they've quickly dropped that habit and say 'aitch' as their peers and their parents do. ---------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 From: Peter Best, pbest@idl.net.au Michael Lewis wrote: > 'I now take the "theory" even less seriously -- thanks again!' A little more anecdotal evidence... I grew up in a country town in the Hunter Valley (NSW) and was taught by nuns, mostly home-grown, at a Catholic primary school. I and all my family used "haitch". I recall reciting the alphabet in kindergarten, the whole class using "haitch" and accepting it as the norm. "Haitch" seems to have been the practice for some time as my mother attended the same school and used "haitch" - though she also came from solid Irish stock! It wasn't until I began to move in wider circles (still going 'round in circles now) that I realised that "aitch" existed. PB Newcastle, (caaahstle) Australia. ---------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 From: Michael Lewis, mlewis@brandle.com.au When you refer to "wider circles", do you mean that "haitch" was (is?) the norm throughout the Hunter Valley? I'm wondering whether there is, after all, a regional aspect here. Incidentally, Peter's clarification of his pronunciation of "Newcastle" reminds me of something else that might have roots in the Catholic education system. I was brought up as an Anglican in south London, and was taught to pronounce "mass" (in the liturgical rather than physical sense) with a short "a" (normally represented phonetically by the ae ligature called "ash"). The TV series "Brideshead Revisited" portrayed English Catholics pronouncing the term with a broad "a", as in "cart"; this was completely new to me. Does anyone have any perception of how widespread this pronunciation is? ---------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 From: Shirley Beaver, beaver@nor.com.au Brought up as a (working class) South London Catholic, I have always used the pronunciation of "Mass" with a short "a", and was surprised when I first heard the "Marss" pronunciation, probably in the 60s. I had the impression at the time that it was an "upper class" thing, used only by royalty, peers of the realm and their fraightfully well-orff friends. ---------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 From: Nancy Boston, boston.editorial@ntlworld.com I was brought up as a Catholic in South London and the short-a Mass was by far the most common pronunciation. However, there were a few friends of my mother who did pronounce it with a long a, as Mahss. These were the same people who were rather posh and pronounced her name Mahri (it was Marie, which she always said as Marry; Maree seems to be the most favoured variant these days). I don't know whether Mahss is the genuine upper-crust pronunciation or an affectation adopted by those with pretensions in that direction. My Sloane-ranger sister-in-law is not a Catholic and I can't remember if I've ever heard her say it, so that's no help. As for the haitch/aitch thing, I still think it's regional. I went to various Catholic schools in London and was taught by nuns (probably some of them were Irish) and never heard the haitch pronunciation until my eldest son started school (non- denominational) in Leicestershire. At first I thought it was just his teacher (making it easier for the children to remember that it was the letter for the huh sound) until I realised that all the children said it like that, and then when my other two children started at different schools in different parts of Leicestershire, they were taught to say haitch too. As far as I am aware none of their teachers were Irish or Catholic. ---------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 From: Helen Topor, Helen.Topor@cit.act.edu.au I wonder if this haitch/aitch issue is another urban myth. I was educated by Irish Catholic nuns in Australia and we were expressly forbidden to say haitch. We were told it would make us sound uneducated. Has anyone else had this experience? ---------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 From: Caroline Burns, carolinegburns@hotmail.com I'm American, and I've been in London only two years: but I thought the correct, received, and standard thing was 'aiye-ich.' Unless you are a 'pwesentohr' for the BBC, in which case it is ertainly 'wheysh.' Not that I have any opinion about that or anything else. Cheers! ---------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 From: Mark Hendy, markhendy1@compuserve.com FWIW: The official pronunciation in English on RTE/ (Radio Telefis Ei/reann) is "haitch". (In case anyone is interested, in Irish the letter is called h-ocht, pronounced "ah-hocht", with the ch as in loch.) ---------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 From: Drusilla Calvert, d.calvert@macrex.com Up here in Tyne and Wear (tear as in drop) in the North-East of England it's called something like N'kassle with the emphasis firmly on the "assle" bit. As an immigrant from the South of England I do my best, but going around here talking about NYOOcarsle is a bit of a turn-off. But of course Gateshead over the river from Newcastle, with its wonderful - and unique, I believe - millennium bridge is really the place to be (couldn't resist that plug!). Oddly enough I've always said Glazzgo rather than Glarsgo, though. And sometimes I think I'm the only person in England to talk about vytamins instead of vittamins. I suppose like masses of other people I have relations in all parts of Britain (and elsewhere) and have picked up the bits that I like from the various traditions. Haitch, as in You See Haitch (the famous hospital) was very common in Camden Town, North London (which has a large Irish population) when I lived there. ---------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 From: Shirley Beaver, beaver@nor.com.au I taught in Australian primary schools for many years, and found that every year I had to re-educate my new class to say "aitch". By the end of the year, they would be correcting each other and kids from other classes. But a few weeks into their new class, at the start of the next school year, they would all be back to "haitch". It's much more widespread than the Catholic school system. ----------------------- Date: Tues, 12 Feb 2002 From: Christine Headley, chps@globalnet.co.uk My daughter haitches, but her father and I don't. We've lived in non-metropolitan Kent, outer London, Hong Kong and Gloucestershire. ----------------------- Date: Tues, 12 Feb 2002 From: Anne Hegerty, annehegerty@genie.co.uk From Anthony Sampson's *Anatomy of Britain*, 1962: 'The great majority [of British Catholics] are working class, from poor Irish immigrants; many are upper class, but there is no great middle class core of Catholicism. (Upper class Catholics are said to talk about mass to rhyme with *pass*, middle class rhyme it with *lass*, working class rhyme it with *fuss*.)' ----------------------- Date: Tues, 12 Feb 2002 From: Drusilla Calvert, d.calvert@macrex.com A friend has just pointed out that she would normally use "aitch" but if she's on the phone and has to give her postcode (which includes an H) she would say "haitch" so that it could be easily distinguished from "eight". ----------------------- Date: Tues, 12 Feb 2002 From: Alison Turnbull, ali@fit-to-print.co.uk Which brings us nicely back to the hotel that started this thread. I give the second part of my postcode as zero-hotel-lima. Clued-up call-centre folk who know the NATO phonetic alphabet* appreciate the effort; people who don't have a good laugh because they think I'm completely barking. * (worth mugging up on for those vital pub quiz points!) ----------------------- Date: Tues, 12 Feb 2002 From: Victor Dewsbery, translation@dewsbery.de Anne Hegerty wrote: > From Anthony Sampson's *Anatomy of Britain*, 1962: > > ... Upper class Catholics are said to talk about mass to rhyme > with *pass*, middle class rhyme it with *lass*, working class > rhyme it with *fuss*. The plot thickens. In my speech, "pass" rhymes with "lass" anyway (and "mass" rhymes with both of them). And the vowel in "fuss" is almost indistinguishable (exept in length) from the vowel in "purse". So I conclude that Anthony Sampson spoke a different language from me (although I was born and grew up just 50 miles from Oxford, which I assume is an icon of his particular dialect). ----------------------- Date: Tues, 12 Feb 2002 From: Michael Lewis, mlewis@brandle.com.au "Just" 50 miles? In dialect terms, that's a l-o-o-o-n-g way! Indeed (and it's a source of constant amusement to me), the so-called "Oxford" accent is rarely spoken in Oxford except within the University itself (and is far from universal there). Most inhabitants of the town have an OxfordSHIRE accent -- dramatically different! --- Thanks also to Miranda Barker for her contribution. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= END OF EDline 7.39 Admin page: < http://www.electriceditors.net/edline/admin.htm > ** The views expressed in this mailing list are strictly those of the individual contributors, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the moderators or of the Electric Editors. ** Articles (c) 2001, 2002, by individual contributors Design (c) 1996--2002 Iain Brown Compilation (c) 2002, Iain Brown / The Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=