=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= EDline Vol. 7, no. 85 (19 March 2002) Editorial mailing list (digest version) Published by the Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Contents: Q & A [2th] The introductory 'as' [Offshoot of [2tf] Using 'which' and 'that'] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ---[2]-- Q & A -------------------------------------------------- ** [2th] The introductory 'as' [Offshoot of [2tf] Using 'which' and 'that'] Date: Thurs, 14 March 2002 From: Shirley Beaver, beaver@nor.com.au Valerie Elliston wrote: > Although I personally think the use of in defining > clauses makes life easier, it doesn't bother me half as much as > the use of in sentences such as a drink>! Whatever happened to , , > and so on?! However, this is now rampant among TV and > radio presenters, announcers, anyone from top down. Speaking of "as if" and "as though", is it only in Australia that the phrase "much as he enjoyed the holiday..." has become "AS much as he enjoyed...", and "difficult as it was to see..." has become "AS difficult as it was to see..."? I know that the meaning is not obscured, but it still jars on my sense of rightness. ------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 March 2002 From: Judy Stein, jstein@panix.com Shirley Beaver wrote: > is it only in Australia that the phrase "much as he enjoyed the > holiday..." has become "AS much as he enjoyed...", and > "difficult as it was to see..." has become "AS difficult as it > was to see..."? It's very common in the United States. It never occurred to me to wonder whether it was incorrect--and I'm not sure on what basis it would be; may I ask you to elaborate? ------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 March 2002 From: Shirley Beaver, beaver@nor.com.au I'm no grammarian, but it seems that "as much as" or "as difficult as" have suggestions of direct comparison. "This task is as difficult as that task." I'm currently reading Trollope, and have been struck by his meticulous use of "Much as..." etc. "Quiet as she was in manner, sober and demure as was her usual settled appearance, she could talk, when the fit came upon her, with an energy which in truth surprised those who did not know her." (Dr Thorne) I think there is an element of comparison here, but it is indirect. Perhaps if you replace "as" with "though", the meaning becomes clearer: "Though she was quiet in manner, though her usual settled appearance was sober and demure..." But perhaps I'm complicating matters too much. I'd be interested in comments from anyone who has a better grasp of the technicalities than I have. ------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 March 2002 From: Michael Lewis, mlewis@brandle.com.au There is a structural difference here, albeit probably not an important one. "Quiet as she was in manner" corresponds in meaning to "Much as she was quiet in manner". Similarly, "much as her settled appearance was sober and demure" etc. Probably not important because I'm not sure that it makes a whole lot of difference: I would certainly be unsurprised to encounter "As quiet as she was in manner" _or_ "As much as she was quiet in manner". Still, the usages do admit of analysis, and it seems to me that "quiet as she was" and "as quiet as she was" should mean two different things. The suggested equivalence of "though" is to the original "as", not to the "much", still less to the added initial "as": "Quiet though she was in manner", "Much though she was quiet in manner". What (if anything) is being compared to/with what? With the initial "as", I would want to see something like this: "As quiet as she was in manner, her sister was demure in appearance"; a proposition is being compared with another. Without it, "Quiet as she was in manner, she could talk the hind leg off a donkey"; a proposition _about the same entity_ is being contrasted with another. That is, what we might term the "single as" construction has a contrastive element that is (or should be) lacking in the "double as" construction. ------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 March 2002 From: Simon Cauchi, cauchi@wave.co.nz Look at the entry for "as", the adverb, conjunction and relative pronoun, in the OED, 2nd edn, esp. section B, I, 3b. What seems to have happened is that an introductory "as" or "so" was formerly used, but then came to be omitted, and now (though the OED doesn't yet record it, at least not in the 2nd edn) an introductory "as" is coming to be used again. Here is the definition for "as" B, I, 3b, followed by the quotations from the 17th cent. on: b. _esp._ In parenthetical clauses forming an extension of the subject or predicate, the antecedent (_so_, _as_) formerly present is now omitted, and the relative has acquired somewhat of a concessive force = Though, however. 1622 Heylin Cosmogr. iii. (1673) 114/1 As Pet. Ramas (as great a Clerk as he was)..hath most vainly told us. 1641 Evelyn Mem. (1857) I. 37, I took leave of..Antwerp, as late as it was, embarking for Brussels. 1727 Swift Wond. Wonders Wks. 1755 II. ii. 52 The world, as censorious as it is, hath been so kind, etc. 1742 Richardson Pamela III. 45 Bad as his Actions were..would there not have been, etc.? 1835 Crabbe Par. Reg. i. 534 Fair as she is, I would my widow take. (Or perhaps, for all I know, the introductory "as" never died out in American speech, and is now being reintroduced to the UK and other places where it did die out.) ------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 March 2002 From: Jane Lyle, jlyle@indiana.edu Simon Cauchi wrote: > (Or perhaps, for all I know, the introductory "as" never died > out in American speech, and is now being reintroduced to the UK > and other places where it did die out.) It never died out, but introductory "as" is optional in most cases in the U.S., especially informally. In the mid-1950s, Evans and Evans (A Dictionary of Contemporary American Usage) said, "A comparison logically involves the forms _as --- as_, as in _she's as pretty as a picture_. In current English we often drop the first _as_, as in _It is clear as crystal_. In this sense _as_ can be said to introduce clauses of degree." Michael interprets Shirley's example ("Quiet as she was in manner, sober and demure as was her usual settled appearance, she could talk, when the fit came upon her, with an energy which in truth surprised those who did not know her") as meaning "Much as she was quiet in manner, much as her usual settled appearance was sober and demure, she could talk. . . ." To me, however, it means "However quiet she may have been in manner, however sober and demure her usual settled appearance may have been, she could talk. . . ." Merriam-Webster 10 has an entry for the conjunction "much as." It dates it to circa 1699 and gives as the definitions "however much" and "even though." The American Heritage Dictionary gives only the definition "however much" and adds an example: "Much as she needed the job, she had to refuse." ------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 March 2002 From: Michael Lewis, mlewis@brandle.com.au Jane Lyle wrote: > Michael interprets Shirley's example ... as meaning "Much as > she was quiet in manner, much as her usual settled appearance > was sober and demure, she could talk. . . ." To me, however, it > means "However quiet she may have been in manner, however sober > and demure her usual settled appearance may have been, she > could talk. . . ." Indeed; this is another perfectly good paraphrase -- with "however" expressing the contrast. > Merriam-Webster 10 has an entry for the conjunction "much as." > It dates it to circa 1699 and gives as the definitions "however > much" and "even though." The American Heritage Dictionary gives > only the definition "however much" and adds an example: "Much > as she needed the job, she had to refuse." And again. Whereas (it seems to me) "as much as she needed the job, she had to refuse" indicates that her obligation to refuse was a great as her need for the job. The added initial "as" removes the contrastive element. (Or removing the initial "as" adds the contrastive element?) ------------------------- Date: Tues, 19 March 2002 From: Simon Cauchi, cauchi@wave.co.nz I would never say anything like "as much as she needed the job, she had to refuse", but my understanding of it is different from Michael's. I don't think any comparison is being made between the woman's need and her refusal. Consider those quotations I found in the OED, showing that the construction we now find odd was once current in British English: 1622 Heylin Cosmogr. iii. (1673) 114/1 As Pet. Ramas (as great a Clerk as he was)..hath most vainly told us. 1641 Evelyn Mem. (1857) I. 37, I took leave of..Antwerp, as late as it was, embarking for Brussels. 1727 Swift Wond. Wonders Wks. 1755 II. ii. 52 The world, as censorious as it is, hath been so kind, etc. Here too I don't believe any comparison is being made in these sentences between the vanity of the statement and the greatness of the scholar ("Clerk"), or between the lateness of the hour (or season, or whatever is meant) and Evelyn's departure from Antwerp, or between the censoriousness of the world and its kindness. Whether the construction is "Much as she needed the job ..." or "As much as she needed the job ...", I think it is to be paraphrased simply as "Though her need for the job was great, yet ..." or in some similar wording. But, sorry, I can't explain the grammar! ------------------------- Date: Tues, 19 March 2002 From: Michael Lewis, mlewis@brandle.com.au Simon Cauchi wrote: > ... my understanding of it is different from Michael's. I don't > think any comparison is being made between the woman's need > and her refusal. I'm sorry: I haven't been completely clear. I agree that current use of the "as ... as" construction makes the same sort of contrastive comparison as the "single as" construction. What I have been describing is, as it were, the "canonical" interpretation of the "double as" construction -- the apparent rather than intended meaning. We might recall that, although the original question was why the initial "as" was being added so commonly nowadays, we were then steered onto the path of the underlying grammar. (I'm away from my own PC and archives at present, so can't confidently identify the CELlar-mates "responsible".) It's the grammar, rather than the intended meaning, that I've been trying to explore. A sudden thought: I wonder whether the increasing use of "as much as" arises from an incomplete or inaccurate interpretation of "in as much as". Which also, tangentially, leads to whether people write it like that or as "inasmuch as"; whether people write "insofar as" or "in so far as". Language changes in so many ways; some subtle, some like a custard pie in the face... ------------------------- Date: Tues, 19 March 2002 From: Roger Whitehead, rgw@office-futures.com Michael Lewis wrote: > Which also, tangentially, leads to whether people write it like > that or as "inasmuch as" They seems to have been doing both for a while, according to OED2: 1545 Brinklow Complaynt 3 b, Inasmoch as there is no powr but of God. 1577 Test. 12 Patriarchs (1604) 124 In as much as his mind is bent unto righteousness, he putteth away naughtiness. 1628 T. Spencer Logick 54 It is diffusiuely good, in as much as it is fit..to bestow good vpon others. 1771 Wesley Serm. I. i. s.5 Inasmuch as 'he was delivered for our sins'. The rise of "underway" seems a wholly 20th & 21st century phenomenon, by contrast. ------------------------- Date: Tues, 19 March 2002 From: Peter Cousins, pcousins@tesco.net Michael Lewis suggests a possible connection between 'much as' and 'inasmuch'. Attractive as the suggestion is, I suspect it is a red herring, although a fragrant and apppetising specimen. Surely 'inasmuch' means 'since' or 'because'. Whereas the usage of 'as' that started this thread suggests - as has been pointed out - a judgment about degree or a concessive stance : 'Ugly as he was, he moved and spoke with unexpected dignity.' =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= END OF EDline 7.85 Admin page: < http://www.electriceditors.net/edline/admin.htm > ** The views expressed in this mailing list are strictly those of the individual contributors, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the moderators or of the Electric Editors. ** Articles (c) 2001, 2002, by individual contributors Design (c) 1996--2002 Iain Brown Compilation (c) 2002, Iain Brown / The Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=