=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= EDline Vol. 8, no. 18 (25 February 2003) Editorial mailing list (digest version) Published by the Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Contents: Q & A [2xm] Apostrophe crisis =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ---[2]-- Q & A -------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 From: Biddy Greene, fbgreene@mweb.co.za The story about Amherst Town Hall staff spending hours pasting little pieces of adhesive tape over offending apostrophes reminded me of something that happened here in Cape Town in 1963. At that stage there was an attempt by the apartheid government to convince the world that life for "non-white" people here was "separate but equal". To this end a directive went out that all benches thitherto marked "WHITES ONLY" or "NON-WHITES ONLY" should have the "ONLYs" painted out. (This presumably was deemed less offensive.) So it happened that, one day as a friend and I were coming back from town on the suburban railway, we noticed at all the stations that the signs which had previously said "CROSS THE LINE BY THE SUBWAY ONLY" now said "CROSS THE LINE BY THE SUBWAY "! That story, of course, has nothing to do with editing, but I would like to know how one is 'supposed' to deal with that 'ONLYs' in quotes: in fact only the 'ONLY' bit is quoted; so what's the best way of dealing with the necessary 's'? ---------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 From: Beck Laxton, becklaxton@yahoo.com I would write "ONLY"s, putting the quoted word between the apostrophes. But I'd use single quotes, so it would be 'ONLY's - which is where we run into trouble, since the second apostrophe now looks like a redundant apostrophe in the plural. We need a more sophisticated way of writing apostrophes, don't we? Do's and don'ts is the one I hate, though I don't think anyone I've explained it to has accepted that if they really want to do it that way it would have to be don't's... I've avoided putting quotation marks around these quoted words since to do so would make a complete mess - which is another option! ---------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 From: Judy Stein, jstein@panix.com Biddy Greene wrote: > That story, of course, has nothing to do with editing, but I > would like to know how one is 'supposed' to deal with that > 'ONLYs' in quotes: in fact only the 'ONLY' bit is quoted; so > what's the best way of dealing with the necessary 's'? Punt! One solution, bag the article and the plural: ...have "ONLY" painted out. Another possibility--if itals are available, precede "only" with "the word," put "only" in itals, lowercase, no quotes (asterisks indicate itals below): ...have the word *only* painted out. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 From: Esther Shchory, eshchory@nonstop.net.il Steve Rickaby wrote: > It is apparently editorial policy at the New York Times to use > an apostrophe in the plural form of acronyms, thus 'PC's', > 'PDA's' and so on. This came to light after David Pogue was > widely lambasted following a recent article involving 'PC's'. > Can this be a reflection of the changing language? It seems a > deeply retrograde step to me. I've just been reading a grammar article that gives that as standard! ---------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 From: Steve Rickaby, srickaby@wordmongers.demon.co.uk Well I despair, in that case :-( ---------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 From: Beck Laxton, becklaxton@yahoo.com Steve Rickaby wrote: > It is apparently editorial policy at the New York Times to use > an apostrophe in the plural form of acronyms, thus 'PC's', Aargh! Oh no! It's such an insidious habit now, though, isn't it? Esther Shchory wrote: > I've just been reading a grammar article that gives that as > standard! I think you should name and shame the author, Esther! C'mon Steve, we can't give up the good fight... I have a theory that it was the invention of CDs that started off the whole trend of putting apostrophes in plurals. Before that, there weren't many words made out of capitals that anyobdy needed to pluralise, so there wasn't the opportunity to get it wrong. But it seems soooo simple. One cat, two cats. How do people get so muddled? ---------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 From: Katie Lewis, katie@farnfilm.com Beck Laxton wrote: > I have a theory that it was the invention of CDs that started > off the whole trend of putting apostrophes in plurals. Except LPs and EPs of course . More seriously, my 1983 version of Fowler (Second edition 1965, reprinted 1983 with corrections) mentions this under M.P. - which you will note had full points back then, which I think is a strong contributor to the confusion. It's hard to talk about dotting your is and crossing your ts, or minding your ps and qs, without use of apostrophe, so people have the idea that you must always use one when using letters rather than words. More understandable, I think, than apple's. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 From: Steve Rickaby, srickaby@wordmongers.demon.co.uk Beck Laxton wrote: > I have a theory that it was the invention of CDs that started > off the whole trend of putting apostrophes in plurals. You could be right - or at least not acronyms in widespread usage. Except that people get apostrophes wrong everywhere else, too. It makes me feel ill. A local branch of a well-known PC chain has a sales bay headed 'PDA's' in foot-high capitals. A mistake is one thing, but expensively manufactured signage with mistakes is quite another. > C'mon Steve, we can't give up the good fight... I won't. (Or should that be 'I wont'?) I suppose you know that there's a British Apostrophe Preservation Society? I have lost the details, but it made national news a while back. At least someone feels strongly. There is a serious side to this. I have always believed that using the apostrophe to form the plural of an acronym was plain wrong, as it flies in the face of all other rules about the use of apostrophes. Now I worry - is the usage changing? How would one know? Who is the ultimate authority? Oxford Guide to Style, 2002, Section 3.7: Abbreviations form the possessive in the ordinary way, with -'s: CEO's salary, MPs' assistants. Most abbreviations form the plural by adding -s" VIPs, MCs, SOSs. When an abbreviation contains more than one full point, put the 's after the final one: Ph.D.s, M.Phil.s, the d.t.s. When it has only one full point, put the -s before it: eds., nos. No mention of possessive plurals there, then. Phew. Oxford Guide to Style, 2002, Section 5.2.2: Do not use the apostrophe when creating plurals. This includes names, abbreviations (with or without full points)... Oxford 1, NYT 0 So who wrote that 'grammar' article, Esther? Katie Lewis wrote: > It's hard to talk about dotting your is and crossing your ts, > or minding your ps and qs, without use of apostrophe, so people > have the idea that you must always use one when using letters > rather than words. Wouldn't that be 'dotting your 'i's and crossing your 't's. ? Here the apostrophe is not a possessive, but a closing quote. More to the point, lots of folks are uncertain about the apostrophe, so put one in 'just in case'. ---------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 From: Michael Lewis, mlewis@brandle.com.au Beck Laxton wrote: > I have a theory that it was the invention of CDs that started > off the whole trend of putting apostrophes in plurals. We used to call them "greengrocers' apostrophes". "Banana's, two a penny." They go back a long way. ---------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 From: Esther Shchory, eshchory@nonstop.net.il Beck Laxton wrote: > I think you should name and shame the author, Esther! C'mon > Steve, we can't give up the good fight... I'm afraid I send it straight to the Recycle Bin. I have even worse news in that the article I had in mind was sent to the Bin but I found this lurking on my HDD, which means more than one person is disseminating this misinformation :0) "Finally, the apostrophe is used in one other way. Although the apostrophe is never used to make a word plural, it is used to make letters and numerals plural: Although I received C's and D's in many of my college classes, I always received A's in my business classes. My sister received straight A's throughout her college career. My score sheet showed that I had six 5's and three 4's." written by Gary A. Olson ---------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 From: Sue Little, sue.little@btinternet.com I have been receiving and enjoying EDline for over a year but have never felt moved to do anything more than lurk - but now, I just have to write in and say how wonderful it has been to see so many people caring about misplaced possessive apostrophes, in particular the contributor who pointed out how much worse misuse is when it moves from the greengrocer's board to the expensively manufactured chainstore sign. I too have noticed the signs in PC World and despaired. I rant on about this endlessly to my family, who can also now spot them a mile away. Incidentally, I too know them as 'greengrocer's apostrophes', thanks to my grandad, a wise and witty man, who also took the trouble to point out to me on shopping trips that the phrase 'recommended by dentists' on a tube of toothpaste need only refer to two and thus somewhat diminishes one's confidence... Thanks everyone for the great discussions! ---------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 From: Drusilla Calvert, d.calvert@macrex.com There's a book I have (I've never read it) called "Fair Do's" by David Nobbs. Can't imagine why he wanted to call it that - but he couldn't really have called it "Fair Dos". ---------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 From: Michael Fitch, michaelbfitch@supanet.com > "Fair Do's" by David Nobbs In fact, my Oxford dictionary has: fair dos: (colloq.) fair shares - so he could have. It's a sequel to 'A Bit of a Do' which was serialized on TV and starred David Jason. I preferred his earlier book, 'Second from Last in the Sack Race'. ---------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 From: Sulaiman Adebowale, sulaiman.adebowale@codesria.sn Esther Shchory wrote: > I'm afraid I send it straight to the Recycle Bin. BTW, how do you bin the web page, Esther ? < http://chuma.cas.usf.edu/~olson/pms/apostrophe.html > ---------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 From: Esther Shchory, eshchory@nonstop.net.il Sulaiman Adebowale wrote: > BTW, how do you bin the web page, Esther ? I save WebPages to read later offline. If I like them I convert to Word and save. If I don't I just delete =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= END OF EDline 8.18 Admin page: < http://www.electriceditors.net/edline/admin.htm > ** The views expressed in this mailing list are strictly those of the individual contributors, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the moderators or of the Electric Editors. ** Articles (c) 2002--2003, by individual contributors Design (c) 1996--2003 Iain Brown Compilation (c) 2003 Iain Brown / The Electric Editors =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=